Equipment versus practice posts and Rifle practice/shooting

[ResearchinStuff]

I make my kids color the circles in with crayons.

 

[il_cop]

@Formidilosus
Apologies if it was answered elsewhere...

What's the significance of different size targets-the absolute size change of MOA at different distances?

Assuming the training is specific to hunting/killing big game, what's the disadvantage of shooting 1 conistent and conservative vitals size target (~8 or 10" plate) from every position and distance? Similar to the paper plate post earlier in the thread?

When you miss from x position and y distance you know your limits and what to work on (?)

 

[NSI]

@Formidilosus
Apologies if it was answered elsewhere...

What's the significance of different size targets-the absolute size change of MOA at different distances?

Assuming the training is specific to hunting/killing big game, what's the disadvantage of shooting 1 conistent and conservative vitals size target (~8 or 10" plate) from every position and distance? Similar to the paper plate post earlier in the thread?

When you miss from x position and y distance you know your limits and what to work on (?)

Because rifles shoot to a cone. Because wobble zone shrinks as you get closer to the ground and add support. Because shooting at 100yd and extrapolating to distance is convenient.

-J

 

[il_cop]

Because rifles shoot to a cone. Because wobble zone shrinks as you get closer to the ground and add support. Because shooting at 100yd and extrapolating to distance is convenient.

-J

Totally understand the convenience point but not following the logic on the first two points.

If one can conveniently shoot out to 500, owns one or many 10" plates and whether by setting up plates at random distances from say 50 to 500 yards or by moving the shooter to different distances and shooting at a single plate, what advantage do the paper targets and moa guidelines hold, other than in the case of not having convenient of access to longer ranges?

The animals vitals aren't changing size according to distance, why add the variable complexity of moa?

If a person doesn't miss a 10" ~10 moa target at 100 yards from any positions but misses the 10" ~2 moa target at 500 from certain or all positions, that tells you everything you need to know and work on, no?

maybe I'm missing the point(?)

 

[NSI]

Totally understand the convenience point but not following the logic on the first two points.

If one can conveniently shoot out to 500, owns one or many 10" plates and whether by setting up plates at random distances from say 50 to 500 yards or by moving the shooter to different distances and shooting at a single plate, what advantage do the paper targets and moa guidelines hold, other than in the case of not having convenient of access to longer ranges?

The animals vitals aren't changing size according to distance, why add the variable complexity of moa?

If a person doesn't miss a 10" ~10 moa target at 100 yards from any positions but misses the 10" ~2 moa target at 500 from certain or all positions, that tells you everything you need to know and work on, no?

maybe I'm missing the point(?)

Yeah I don't think we're tracking.

1) The target sizes are indicative of the wobble zone that should be achievable from each position, as measured in an angular unit - MOA or Mils for example. That is, 2 inches from the prone in this drill isn't 2 inches - it's 2 MOA.

2) Yes, animal vitals do not change size depending upon what distance they are from you. However, different shooting positions will enable different wobble zones which will restrict maximum effective range for that position.

Putting this together:

If you know you are an on-demand 2 MOA shooter/system from the prone, and you know that your animal vitals are 10 inches round, then you know that you should likely be effective from that position to 500 yards.

If you know you are an on-demand 4 MOA shooter/system from the kneeling supported, and you know that your animal vitals are 10 inches round, then you know that you should likely be effective from that position to 250 yards.

Is this making sense? Yes, you could replicate the spirit of this drill by taking 10 inch plates and placing them at a variety of distances, and shooting them from the positions that correspond to their scaled angular width at 100 yards. That would be fun, but you'd never know if your misses were truly due to fundamentals (and the extent of your wobble zone in a given position) or due to wind. It would also be substantially harder to track the improvement in your positional shooting (reduction in wobble zone) over time as you practice and repeat the drill.

-J

 

[il_cop]

Yeah I don't think we're tracking.

1) The target sizes are indicative of the wobble zone that should be achievable from each position, as measured in an angular unit - MOA or Mils for example. That is, 2 inches from the prone in this drill isn't 2 inches - it's 2 MOA.

2) Yes, animal vitals do not change size depending upon what distance they are from you. However, different shooting positions will enable different wobble zones which will restrict maximum effective range for that position.

Putting this together:

If you know you are an on-demand 2 MOA shooter/system from the prone, and you know that your animal vitals are 10 inches round, then you know that you should likely be effective from that position to 500 yards.

If you know you are an on-demand 4 MOA shooter/system from the kneeling supported, and you know that your animal vitals are 10 inches round, then you know that you should likely be effective from that position to 250 yards.

Is this making sense? Yes, you could replicate the spirit of this drill by taking 10 inch plates and placing them at a variety of distances, and shooting them from the positions that correspond to their scaled angular width at 100 yards. That would be fun, but you'd never know if your misses were truly due to fundamentals (and the extent of your wobble zone in a given position) or due to wind. It would also be substantially harder to track the improvement in your positional shooting (reduction in wobble zone) over time as you practice and repeat the drill.

-J

Got it, that makes sense now, ty. I certainly see the benefits of the drill to establish a baseline for the shooter+system at short range, without additional variables = wind

So if we can can, with confidence through the drill, say "I'm capable of 2 moa on demand from this position" then I can dial in my wind calls if I'm missing a 10 inch plate at 300 rather than questioning/messing around with the shooter+system.

Tracking. Thanks

 

[will_brap]

If one can conveniently shoot out to 500, owns one or many 10" plates and whether by setting up plates at random distances from say 50 to 500 yards or by moving the shooter to different distances and shooting at a single plate, what advantage do the paper targets and moa guidelines hold, other than in the case of not having convenient of access to longer ranges?

Convenience. Most people can't shoot out to 500 yards on a regular basis. Paper also shows WHERE you hit and miss, allowing you to diagnose your process. If you were super serious about improving, you could add scoring rings inside each target and track your progress. The targets are likely sized in MOA so hunters (I think most still use MOA) can work out how big of a vital zone the target would represent at various distances. Doing flat range work also makes the drill repeatable and directly comparable/standardized between everyone.

The animals vitals aren't changing size according to distance, why add the variable complexity of moa?

Antelope and moose have different sized vitals. Building targets around an angular value (MOA) lets you represent whatever combination of target size/distance that is relevant to you for each target size. A 2 MOA target could represent a broad side moose at 1,150 yards (24" wide vitals) or a partial exposure on an antelope at 400 yards (8 inch wide vitals). The assessment doesn't take into account wind, bullet velocity, bullet construction etc, so I'm sure its not meant to give you a limit on how far you can kill a given animal. But it is standardized, repeatable and relevant to anyone who wants to do the math.

If a person doesn't miss a 10" ~10 moa target at 100 yards from any positions but misses the 10" ~2 moa target at 500 from certain or all positions, that tells you everything you need to know and work on, no?

Is that miss due to wind or technique? How far did they miss? How centered were the hits? This is why paper has value.

I think the point of this course of fire is to use it as a diagnostic, to show me where I am weak and where I'm weaker haha. It doesn't pretend to replace shooting at distance. When you shoot in the field and add wind, terrain and other factors you limit the number of dudes that can participate and remove the standardization/scoring metrics.

Again, steel doesn't give you the whole story. Freshly painted steel is helpful for seeing splash. And properly mounted steel can give you an idea of where you hit based on the targets reaction. Back in the day we spent time shooting paper at long ranges and having each hit marked (by a down range team member) and immediately shown to the shooter. This immediate feedback let the shooter (and spotter) know exactly where they hit or missed (if it was a near miss). I'm not some super shooter, I rarely shoot past 700 yards, I'm just giving some context on why there is value in shooting paper.

 

[Nine Banger]

If one can conveniently shoot out to 500, owns one or many 10" plates and whether by setting up plates at random distances from say 50 to 500 yards or by moving the shooter to different distances and shooting at a single plate, what advantage do the paper targets and moa guidelines hold, other than in the case of not having convenient of access to longer ranges?

Paper targets have the advantage to measure line cutters accurately.

On the offhand targets I don't think you're going to see better scores by zooming in. I shoot mine at 6x with Rs1.2. At 4x the extra effort to study the thin reticle outweighs the benefit of less wobble zone but I'm sure that could be overcome with training.

 

[Speaks]

Got it, that makes sense now, ty. I certainly see the benefits of the drill to establish a baseline for the shooter+system at short range, without additional variables = wind

So if we can can, with confidence through the drill, say "I'm capable of 2 moa on demand from this position" then I can dial in my wind calls if I'm missing a 10 inch plate at 300 rather than questioning/messing around with the shooter+system.

Tracking. Thanks

I think a big part of it is removing all variables other than your shooting. You presumably zero at 100 so no elevation dialing or drop calculation mistakes and no wind impact. This is purely a test of your proficiency on the shot. I think I recall reading about this drill (or hearing on the podcast) from form that once mastering this that you should move on to actual ranges where dialing and wind come into the picture. But fist get the fundamentals of the shot down and then add variables.

 

[Carl Ross]

@Formidilosus
Apologies if it was answered elsewhere...

What's the significance of different size targets-the absolute size change of MOA at different distances?

Assuming the training is specific to hunting/killing big game, what's the disadvantage of shooting 1 conistent and conservative vitals size target (~8 or 10" plate) from every position and distance? Similar to the paper plate post earlier in the thread?

When you miss from x position and y distance you know your limits and what to work on (?)

Convenience. Most people can't shoot out to 500 yards on a regular basis. Paper also shows WHERE you hit and miss, allowing you to diagnose your process. If you were super serious about improving, you could add scoring rings inside each target and track your progress. The targets are likely sized in MOA so hunters (I think most still use MOA) can work out how big of a vital zone the target would represent at various distances. Doing flat range work also makes the drill repeatable and directly comparable/standardized between everyone.


Antelope and moose have different sized vitals. Building targets around an angular value (MOA) lets you represent whatever combination of target size/distance that is relevant to you for each target size. A 2 MOA target could represent a broad side moose at 1,150 yards (24" wide vitals) or a partial exposure on an antelope at 400 yards (8 inch wide vitals). The assessment doesn't take into account wind, bullet velocity, bullet construction etc, so I'm sure its not meant to give you a limit on how far you can kill a given animal. But it is standardized, repeatable and relevant to anyone who wants to do the math.


Is that miss due to wind or technique? How far did they miss? How centered were the hits? This is why paper has value.

I think the point of this course of fire is to use it as a diagnostic, to show me where I am weak and where I'm weaker haha. It doesn't pretend to replace shooting at distance. When you shoot in the field and add wind, terrain and other factors you limit the number of dudes that can participate and remove the standardization/scoring metrics.

Again, steel doesn't give you the whole story. Freshly painted steel is helpful for seeing splash. And properly mounted steel can give you an idea of where you hit based on the targets reaction. Back in the day we spent time shooting paper at long ranges and having each hit marked (by a down range team member) and immediately shown to the shooter. This immediate feedback let the shooter (and spotter) know exactly where they hit or missed (if it was a near miss). I'm not some super shooter, I rarely shoot past 700 yards, I'm just giving some context on why there is value in shooting paper.

I think a big part of it is removing all variables other than your shooting. You presumably zero at 100 so no elevation dialing or drop calculation mistakes and no wind impact. This is purely a test of your proficiency on the shot. I think I recall reading about this drill (or hearing on the podcast) from form that once mastering this that you should move on to actual ranges where dialing and wind come into the picture. But fist get the fundamentals of the shot down and then add variables.

This drill was initially created as an online "postal" match, where everyone could print out the targets, shoot it at their own ranges, and share results. It is what it is to make it as accessible as possible, all you need beyond a rifle and backpack is a 100 yd range, a box of ammo, and a timer on your phone.

It is for the same reason that it progresses, first untimed, then timed, then timed with transitions. I wanted people to be able to have SOME success even at lower skill levels.

There was not an overwhelming amount of participation. Few people are willing to publicly suck, so once a few scores in the upper teens are shown most don't want to post their single digit scores. Additionally, WAY more people just want to talk about their guns and shoot groups than are actually interested in real training. The crowd here is actually a better fit than where it started.

Form has gotten far more out of it as a training tool than I ever did, as he trains people for this type of shooting.

Also, doing the drill isn't really the best way to improve any specific position. If you want to get better at sitting supported, work sitting supported over and over dry and live. I do think the drill is useful as a general gauge of positional proficiency, and to highlight specifics of what you should work on.

 

[Bluumoon]

Recently ran the drill w a group of better than avg shooters - 5 guys scores were 14/9/8/7/3.

I was not high score. Normally at worst I’ve been shooting around a 12, at best an 18.

My take away was added peer pressure increases difficulty. Also though my pack was how I hunt for the event, I don’t always practice w it that way (optics/tripod/sticks on bag)

 

[Carl Ross]

My take away was added peer pressure increases difficulty.

Shooting under time, under observation, and keeping score is the best way I know to simulate the pressure of shooting for keeps in a “real world” scenario. And, I think it’s reflective of the performance you can expect from yourself when it counts.

 

[bpitcher]

Does anyone shoot this dry? I scaled it down to 1/10th to shoot it in my house.

Hopefully I'll be out to a place where I can shoot it live in a couple weeks. Looking forward to it.

 

[Nevwild]

@bpitcher Yep! I did every day over the summer in my basement. I figured out how my system works and how to quickly get into the relevant shooting positions quickly and effectively. Built out great muscle memory. Still sucked for the first 20 live fire attempts, but I then started to get 15 regularly. The repetition from the dry fire made it possible.

 

[wind gypsy]

Saw these in the garbage at the range a while back. @Carl Ross - were these targets from somewhere else or did you create them?

Any roksliders shooting at the itasca range in Grand Rapids mn?

 

[Carl Ross]

Saw these in the garbage at the range a while back. @Carl Ross - were these targets from somewhere else or did you create them?

Any roksliders shooting at the itasca range in Grand Rapids mn?View attachment 882542

Ha! I made them, if you see one someone got it from likely here or possibly the campfire. Shoot2Hunt also has a printed version for sale, nice paper, added some color accents I believe.

 

[Moose83]

Sitting supported practice.
.223 tikka
Standing with pack on and rifle in hand as I would usually hunt. 20 second par time to get in position and fire 2 shots

4.5 inch circle
Did the drill 6 times and surprisingly never timed out. Could have slowed down a bit and maybe tightened it up some.


My setup.

 

[MT-nuffgun]

Personal testimony of the drill: I started shooting this drill a couple months ago because I wanted to become fast and effective using my pack in field conditions. I still have some work to do accuracy wise with offhand shots, but my sitting and kneeling game has improved vastly and I have become increasingly more fluid with slinging off my pack and getting on target fast. Little did I know that this skill would produce results in my very next hunt which was spring bear this past week. I was on my first hike into an area I planned to hunt for next several days. I was 2 miles into a 5 mile hike when I came around the corner of a meadow and a bear was feeding just off the trail up a head. It was fairly close quarters and it was almost natural to sling my pack off and get into a shooting position. There are many small details that come together when shooting this drill for decent amount of time. I chose to kneel off my pack for a rest ( which was instinctive with zero thought)and as my cheek welded to my stock and the rifle came to a rest on top of my pack, the crosshairs were indexed mid body on the bear (once again, INSTINCTIVE). Had I not had to take the time to make sure the bear was alone and not grizzly it would have ended there. I chose to take some time to do my due diligence that comes with hunting black bears and evaluate the bear in my riflescope before making the shot. When I felt comfortable that it was a legal bear I settled in and took my shot. After I broke the shot I had instantly chambered another round and was back on target in an instant ( another gained trait from the drill) and was watching the bear spin circles biting at its side. The bear laid down and gave a couple death moans and just like that it was over in about 12 seconds(counting time in your head is yet another trait of the drill). I ranged the dead bear for the first time in this sequence at 141 yards. I cannot express enough how much this drill aids in everything that is real life hunting scenarios.

 

[Castle Rock]

Nice, what gun

 

[MT-nuffgun]

Nice, what gun

Tikka superlite .243 8 twist, Swfa 10x42 milquad gen 2, sports match rings, 108 eldm