Elk Taken With Light Arrow Setups?

[Aron Snyder]

Darin,

Yes, I'm usually shooting between 75-85 lbs with a 29" draw and I've gotten a pass through on a frontal shot. If my accuracy ever drops because of the poundage, I would adjust as needed, but like you, I've been on the bad end of the stick with light arrows and it was a ONE time lesson.

 

[cnelk]

Like I've stated before, I added weed trimmer line inside my arrow shafts to add more weight to the entire length of the shaft.
Just pull your nock, slide the line down the shaft, trim off, put your nock back on.

It an inexpensive way to see how more weight affects your setup. Shoot thru paper and a chrono to see!

 

[MJ from Oregon]

I understand about the brass inserts and heavier broadheads but I thought we were talking about the weight of the shaft. What I was leading my knowledge and experience toward was the structural integrity of the shaft. I can shoot a longer shaft or go up in spine along with a heavier head and build weight to 500+ pretty easy. I apologize for not being clear with my last post and saying Keep it with a 400 spine shaft. It might be time to retune 340's with 125 grain broadheads?

The wall thickness and material its being built with lays heavy on my decision today.

Thanks for all the info.

Mike

 

[littlebuf]

i see a lot of you in the high 400's for weight.anyone over 500 like me? mines at 524gr - 300FMJ, 125gr shuttle T's, some wrap i cant remember but there my favorite and blazer vanes.all this at 30 1/2 inch draw set at 74 pounds.Ive got a lot of confidence with that set up going through bone and it went damn near through my bull last year with a frontal shot.broad head was in his rear leg.

 

[bearguide]

shoot them right and you will not have a problem- shoot them in the shoulder , to high or facing you and you will have a problem

 

[OR Archer]

What broad heads are you using? I was told there are only a few manufactures making broad heads for the Injections!

Since mechanical heads are illegal here in Oregon Ill be using the NAP Thunderhead Edge. I dont care for the Big Nasty that they offer. I know there will be other options for broadheads soon from other manufacturers.

 

[OR Archer]

I understand about the brass inserts and heavier broadheads but I thought we were talking about the weight of the shaft. What I was leading my knowledge and experience toward was the structural integrity of the shaft. I can shoot a longer shaft or go up in spine along with a heavier head and build weight to 500+ pretty easy. I apologize for not being clear with my last post and saying Keep it with a 400 spine shaft. It might be time to retune 340's with 125 grain broadheads?

The wall thickness and material its being built with lays heavy on my decision today.

Thanks for all the info.

Mike

Mike you could run an FMJ 400 at 27 with wrap and a 100gr head and weigh in right at 425gr total weight. I've ran that arrow set up for the past few years and they tune and shoot great. If you wanted a bit more weight you could use the brass inserts and bump the weight up to around 460gr total weight.

 

[ElkNut1]

Mike, I do see what you are saying NOW! (grin) Sorry about that partner! Shaft integrity is only as good as the muscle one puts behind it, the spine of the arrow has to be able to deal & hold up with this impact. In your photos where I see those broken shafts I see no problem with structural integrity! What I see is an arrow that penetrated only 4"-7" then broke off because rest of arrow was sticking out then sheared off by an elks leg, tree etc as it took off. I see too light of a setup that lacked penetration especially if those weren't leg bone or scapula/shoulder bone hits! If structural integrity of the arrow were the issue the shaft would have either broken near the 1/2 way point of shaft (weakest link) or the broadhead would have mushroomed the end of the arrow on impact on all of them. None of this is evident in those photos. It's only my observation.

Arrows in the 335grn range with 100grn heads just have no penetration value on elk sized animals. I know you can appreciate this now! Up that arrow spine to 340/300 & load up front end to a min of 175grn with the same flatliner brand shaft & you will see a world of difference in penetration. You will be in the 400grn total arrow wt. This same 400grn arrow will have close to the same penetration as a 475grn arrow with a 100grn head & standard 15grn aluminum insert, but, you will deliver that arrow with more speed which inhibits a flatter trajectory!

When guys come on here & say that a light setup doesn't work (again, define light) they are referring to setups with 400 spine & 100/125grn heads with poundages at or exceeding 70#, yep, they are undergunned, so they go to heavier which means they go up in spine! Thing is, you can get arrows in 340/300 spine from 6.7grn to 12/13grn per inch. This means you can shoot any wt range you'd like without sacrificing penetration. If a hunter really wants the best of both worlds choose a stiff spine the next number up on the arrow charts. (most charts are regulated for 100/125grn heads) This arrow will not oscillate nearly as much because of being underspined for the horse power delivered. This means that when the arrow meets its target it has a driving force because of the stored energy in that stiffer arrow & heavier head wt. Light arrow (underspined) & low head weight & the opposite effects are the outcome as your photos show & others experiences, you had lots of speed but no stored energy, the result is no penetration upon resistance.

As I mentioned earlier I have done some testing with this, I will do more & post photos of many comparisons. When I test I use 5/16" concrete board, I can easily put 2 & 3 together & it will stop most arrows. I've shot arrows as heavy as 710grns into this structure & not much can get through 3 layers. I will show what a aprox 400grn arrow with 175grn min head can do compared to a like arrow with a 100grn head but exact same arrow wt. Not all arrow wts are created equal! (grin)

This may fall on deaf ears but it sure is fun talking about it! (grin)

ElkNut1

 

[MJ from Oregon]

In your photos where I see those broken shafts I see no problem with structural integrity! What I see is an arrow that penetrated only 4"-7" then broke off because rest of arrow was sticking out then sheared off by an elks leg, tree etc as it took off. I see too light of a setup that lacked penetration especially if those weren't leg bone or scapula/shoulder bone hits! If structural integrity of the arrow were the issue the shaft would have either broken near the 1/2 way point of shaft (weakest link) or the broadhead would have mushroomed the end of the arrow on impact on all of them. None of this is evident in those photos. It's only my observation.


This may fall on deaf ears but it sure is fun talking about it! (grin)

ElkNut1

I can assure you that they were not in a shoulder or ANY large bones. They broke on impact of Ribs!!!! Please give me a little credit here. I have no dog in this fight and only facts from my experience. All of those arrows were from recover animals. On an average year I would estimate I hunt 100 to 120 days all over North America. That being said I have the awareness and knowledge to what my animal is doing before and after the shot. Those arrows did not get broke by trees or rocks or fell upon. Those were not Elk recovered arrows. Black Bear, Blacktail Deer, and Mule Deer.

If you add weight to the Flatline shaft you will slow it down into the speed that the shaft will hold up. I encourage you through your testing to find someone like Aron with heavy poundage and some speed and weight that shaft up as much as you can and shoot it at 310 FPS and you will see the same results as myself.

Again I'll state "With countless Big Game harvest to my 30+years of archery hunting, this was the most unexplainable event to my career".

You asked a question and I did my best to answer it through personal experience. I am truly sorry that my lack of intelligence and thinking KE was the only factor to consider. Today my views have changed and I'm preparing for another year with my archery equipment.

I was all ears and value your information!!!

Mike

 

[Evan Williams]

The main reason that I choose to shoot 100 grain and not jump to 125 is selection. I am ALWAYS playing with a new head. This year the only time that you found me carrying the same head in my quiver was when I was 19 miles from my truck in the colorado backcountry hunting my Mule Deer. Working in the local Pro-Shop I feel as though I need to be able to have the most information for my customers on broadheads. What I have used and how they have worked for me. That is what my Kansas doe tags are for as well as my turkey season when I am out shooting regular heads for body shots. 40 Days this year I was running around with 5 different heads in my quiver because I needed them to be tested. Now there are going to be a BUNCH of you saying that isn't right that isn't ethical...etc. And I would agree with you...IN MOST CASES!!! Sitting in a tree stand is not the game that we are playing out west. Where the majority of shots are 30 yds or less. Each one the heads I was carrying would have been fine at those distances for whitetail.

I don't go out every year with the sole intention of hunting elk. I really don't get to...even living in CO. I get the first few days of the season off (better for Mule Deer) and then am working the shop the rest of season while the boss is out hunting. So I don't need the bump my spine to a 340 and throw a 125 head on. My 393 grain ACC with 100s at 297 fps is still pumping 77 foot pounds of KE. FOC isn't usually a concern of mine as I am always in the 8-12% window and a few times even gotten 13-14%. Just my personal thought

 

[Aron Snyder]

i see a lot of you in the high 400's for weight.anyone over 500 like me? mines at 524gr - 300FMJ, 125gr shuttle T's, some wrap i cant remember but there my favorite and blazer vanes.all this at 30 1/2 inch draw set at 74 pounds.Ive got a lot of confidence with that set up going through bone and it went damn near through my bull last year with a frontal shot.broad head was in his rear leg.

I have a heavy poundage Athens Affixtion coming my way and I'm guessing I will be shooting a 525-550 grain arrow out of it. I'm thinking the GoldTip BigGame 200's with 150 grains up front will be perfect and still get me over 280 fps.

 

[dickey48]

Shooting a heavier arrow is probably the best. My problem is that I only draw 25"/56#(255fps), so a real heavy arrow won't work for me. I am new to elk hunting having only been once in 2010. I did get a cow on that trip. A 38yd shot quartering away and the arrow got both lungs and the top of the heart. The offside shoulder stopped it's journey. I'm going again this year and hope to get another shot at one.

 

[Aron Snyder]

I would shoot a cut on contact type head for sure (with that set up).

What's your set up now?

 

[Pond]

Wow some great info on here! (Hey MJ & OR Archer) I always thought of 400 gr arrow set up as light, or at least as light as a guy should go for elk and deer. I currently shoot a 400 grain arrow and have had really good results. No pass throughs on elk but pass throughs on every deer shot including one that broke a leg on the opposite side going out. For better penetration I switched from a Muzzy head to a Montec but didn't release on a elk this year The speed thing is getting a little overated in my opinion.....but who doesn't look at there speeds and want a little more? I'm looking at some arrow changes this year due to CX dropping the plain Maxima line for the Blue Streak & Hunter. So I will more than likely decide on something new or Blue Streak it....

Keep up the good comments guys as it's helping me determine what I might look at next for my 2012 arrows. I can see my weights might increase a bit.

Pond

 

[Evan Williams]

AC Injexion like Coop is running!!!! Thats what I am looking to run through my Vector Turbo when she gets here.

 

[MJ from Oregon]

Pond.......I have been shooting FMJ and the normal carbon Axis shafts and weighing around 400 since they were released until 2 years ago and I was requested to try Flatline's. I have never had any issue's with penetration or breakage with the axis shafts. I prefer the carbon for the single fact of glare off the aluminum shaft.

Great to see you on here Pond!!

MJ

 

[ElkNut1]

Hey Mike, great talking with you last night! Keep up the good work bud! I have a quick question for you, do the Hit Inserts fit the Flatline Arrows? If not, too small/big? I'm asking trying to see what brass ones would fit them, thanks!


Pond, those Maxima arrows are spendy! (grin) In your desire to up your arrow wt. a bit you might want to consider the most bang for your buck! The Blue Streak can be built to be a real punisher! Don't know your arrow length at present or draw wt but consider a 350 arrow at 27" @ 8.3grn per inch= 224grn - Then add 27grn for 3 blazers & nock - Use a 50grn insert & 125 head=175 - Your new total arrow wt. = 426grn - This arrow will have tons of penetration & can be tuned to bows shooting 55#-75# -- As a sidenote if you already have 100grn heads then use 75grn inserts & the 100grn heads! The outcome is the same! Just some food for thought with arrows you are interested in? Good Luck!

ElkNut1

 

[MJ from Oregon]

Yes Paul nice talking to you also and thank you for your information. I am eager to try those arrows out on a Spring Bear and Pig next month.

The inserts are called Microlites.I believe the hit inserts would be too small. OR Archer would know.

I'm excited to do some playing with the heavy inserts. Thanks again for sharing your time and info.

Mike

 

[Jared Bloomgren]

I have shot one elk with a light arrow with a total weight of 387 grains. At 18 yards the arrows passed through the bull breaking two ribs in the process. The bull went 60 yards before I stopped him with a cow call. He stopped to bugle as blood gushed from his sides and out his mouth. Great sight! With that being said everything went perfect in that situation with that arrow set up. I now shoot arrows around 420 grains for elk and penetration/kinetic energy has jumped big time. Heavier arrows are the way to go. Although 420 grains may not be considered a heavy arrow it has performed great for me in penetration and flight tests. Last I checked I was throwing those sticks out there at 323 fps with nearly 100 ft/lbs of KE. Not too bad.

 

[dickey48]

Forgot to mention my arrow with 100gr BH is 353gr