Elk Taken With Light Arrow Setups?

[justin davis]

I with you Darin!! SOunds like you learned the brutal way

 

[Lawnboi]

Another thing to consider, is that with a light arrow your setup is going to make your bow sound a good deal louder. Important factor for me shooting at weary animals. I prefer a heavy arrow for less wind drift, more momentum(i need it, us short armed guys have it hard!), and quieter bow. 2 holes is better then 1!

No elk experience though... yet!That being said i see nothing wrong with shooting a lighter arrow, thats your choice, i think with a lighter arrow though your BH of choice becomes more important.

 

[ElkNut1]

Again, thanks for the comments guys, it's appreciated!

Darin, what wt was your arrow that you lost on your deer & where did you hit him?

As I mentioned above the elk I lost last year was with a 500grn arrow, sometimes it's pilot error & we have to live with it! I know my shot was too high! Wt up front does make a difference in penetration, I will show in the testing. I'm still undecided but not hard headed! (grin) Thanks!

ElkNut1

 

[Screaming Bulls]

2011....... 15' shot in the soft spot in front of the front shoulder. At 309 FPS Flat Liners will not hold up.

How do you like those slick tricks ?

 

[tradair1980]

I have never been a fan of light set ups ...I have a friend that tried it a few years ago chasing speed out so called speed bow and resulted in a lost elk . I witnessed the shot, And the shot was forward but really not too forward. He was shooting montec 85's and was around 330 arrow wieght. And resulted in a arrow penatration really close to the picture above, almost mirrored MJ's ! So I'll stick with 425 and still have a 20 yard pin

 

[MJ from Oregon]

How do you like those slick tricks ?

I like them. I taken numeral different species with them and they perform great and fly extremely well also.

 

[OR Archer]

I try and keep my arrow weight for hunting to at least 400 grains if not more. My new Easton Injexions are just a couple of grains under though at 397gr.

 

[Rent Outdoor Gear]

Don't get me wrong... a gut shot or a shot too high just is what it is. A heavier arrow isn't always the solution. However, when you encounter bone or the animal turns and you're going through a lot of flesh, the more you can cut the better. A broken bone is pretty debilitating and will often allow you to follow up on an animal that will likely bed.

The buck I lost "jumped" the string. Actually ducked and spun away. I hit him right in the crease but probably 5 - 7" high. The arrow probably got one lung. I was above him slightly and he ducked and spun quartering away. I think the arrow may have lodged in the spine but unfortunately failed to break it. A buddy of mine shot some incredible video of the buck that I found on the net the other day. I'll post a link if I can find it.

I firmly believe if I had been shooting a better broadhead with 50 grains more arrow weight I would have a top 5 P&Y nontypical on my wall instead of a really neat set of horns that make me sick to my gut every time I pick them up... I was shooting an arrow that was about 410 grains.

 

[Aron Snyder]

I'm shooting a 490 grain arrow at 290fps and have had great luck with that set up..even with poor shots.

Like others have said, you need to think about what your arrows will do when things go wrong!

 

[Evan Williams]

Don't know what everyone's draw lengths are but I am a 28". I always get 400 spine Easton arrows to tune out of my set-ups at 70#. I shoot wraps and 2.1" Fusion vanes and even shooting an ACC 3-49 this year with a 7" wrap I am still at 390 grains. It just seems tougher for shorter draw guys like me to hit 400+. That comment being on the table...I will NOT shoot a 125 grain broadhead on anything BUT turkeys (magnus Bullhead). Therefore, I don't need to step up to a 340 spine arrow. I also will not shoot an Easton FMJ. If I am going to shoot an aluminum/carbon composite it will be an ACC with the aluminum on the inside where it is less likely to shine in the sun.

Just my thoughts.

 

[ElkNut1]

Thanks again guys! It's always interesting to listen to others views on arrow wts & their setups, it's a good healthy way to understand what works & what doesn't! Yes, there are setups that are borderline & I believe personally it's setups under 370grn for elk! Lighter than that would be considered more of a deer setup, they do not require nearly the horse-power. (grin) As I mentioned above I've never elk hunted with less than 420grn, my norm has been 450-475grn. But as high as 565grns. Mostly for those "you just never know" type shots as Aron states! I also realize a very flat trajectory can be a huge plus when ranging is not possible & you're not sure if an animal is 35 or 43 yds out? I've let many an elk walk because of this very situation & am sure many here have as well.

Lots of things to digest here, Evan doesn't hunt with 125grn+ heads, I've never hunted with anything less that 125grn, doesn't make either of us wrong! He's successful & that's what counts, he's not going to switch up because someone else failed with a like setup with a bad shot & no recovery. Things happen!

I will play with this setup & compare penetration values with arrows up to 500grn! I would not head into the elkwoods without having full confidence in my setup! Guys, I just love tinkering! (grin) I'm not one of those if it works on one critter stay with it for life. Life's too short for that!! Stay safe & shoot straight fellas!

ElkNut1

 

[Dead eye]

I try and keep my arrow weight for hunting to at least 400 grains if not more. My new Easton Injexions are just a couple of grains under though at 397gr.

What broad heads are you using? I was told there are only a few manufactures making broad heads for the Injections!

 

[Rent Outdoor Gear]

Evan you wont shoot 125's because you're trying to stay in a .390-.400 spine arrow right? Shooting a 125 gr. head and moving up to a .340 would help you gain some weight if you really wanted it. Aron, that's the kind of setup I'm talking about - we'll just call you bone crusher! I'm guessing you're shooting over 70 pounds or a real fast bow - those are stout numbers.

 

[MJ from Oregon]

Thanks again guys! It's always interesting to listen to others views on arrow wts & their setups, it's a good healthy way to understand what works & what doesn't! Yes, there are setups that are borderline & I believe personally it's setups under 370grn for elk! Lighter than that would be considered more of a deer setup, they do not require nearly the horse-power. (grin) As I mentioned above I've never elk hunted with less than 420grn, my norm has been 450-475grn. But as high as 565grns. Mostly for those "you just never know" type shots as Aron states! I also realize a very flat trajectory can be a huge plus when ranging is not possible & you're not sure if an animal is 35 or 43 yds out? I've let many an elk walk because of this very situation & am sure many here have as well.

Lots of things to digest here, Evan doesn't hunt with 125grn+ heads, I've never hunted with anything less that 125grn, doesn't make either of us wrong! He's successful & that's what counts, he's not going to switch up because someone else failed with a like setup with a bad shot & no recovery. Things happen!

I will play with this setup & compare penetration values with arrows up to 500grn! I would not head into the elkwoods without having full confidence in my setup! Guys, I just love tinkering! (grin) I'm not one of those if it works on one critter stay with it for life. Life's too short for that!! Stay safe & shoot straight fellas!

ElkNut1

I feel it was not the penetration in question (especially on soft objects) with the Flatliners shafts. I feel the wall thickness is to fragile and when you are reaching speeds of 290 FPS + the structural dynamics of that shaft does not hold up. It takes less energy to break the shaft than it does to penetrate the animal. Especially if you hit any bone. I'm the guy that enjoys tinkering and trying to find products that can improve my game. But I know with out a reasonable doubt the shafts are Shit!!!! I used them the last 2 years and had more issues with deer and elk than any 2 years combined in my 30 year hunting career. Like it was stated above shot placement is most important. But once you hit that spot we all need a product that will perform to a standard of what is expected.

I am obviously a slow learner because I personal witnessed 11 unexplainable events after I started shooting the light setup. I have killed over 30 Elk with archery tackle and uncountable other species out of the North America 29 and I would never recommend any hunting arrow under 14 grains per inch total arrow and broadhead weight.

Here are a couple pieces of the Flatliner shaft. These were broke on the entering side of each animal and not because they fell on them. All of these breaks came off a bow that were shooting between 305 and 330 FPS. I will shoot a little slower arrow with more weight and use the rangefinder more often.

 

[ElkNut1]

Darin, funny thing about your "Aron" comment was I thought the same thing! 489grn at 290 is basically un-heard of! (grin) That is one fast bow!


In light of several comments including the last by MJ, I guess it would be good to define "light arrows" -- Since I started the thread I'll define "light" -- Light in my opinion would be 375grn to 420grn --- mid-weight arrows 420-460grn -- Heavy arrows 460 + - generally in the 460grn to 500grn. These are for compound bow arrows & is total arrow wt with heads installed, Trad arrows would differ from this! These wts are for elk, although I do use the same arrow for deer that I do for elk hunting! Arrow wt is just but one factor, FOC is another as well as fixed blade/COC heads or Mechs which I do not use. Bottom line is the business end for me, sharp, sharp & more sharp!!

Great discussion & enjoy the photos too! Thanks!

ElkNut1

 

[MJ from Oregon]

Great Thread ElkNut1!!!

My arrows are 26'' long so for me to get a arrow to weigh 460+ grains would be difficult. I played a little with the FMJ's Dangerous Game shafts but just could not get them to fly to my liking. Like yourself, I'll set up a hunting rig and hunt everything with it. That being said I do have a "On the ground bow" and a "Tree Stand or Ground Blind bow" (Tree Stand-Blind bow 1/2'' shorter draw). So wouldn't you think that grains per inch be a better way to judge arrow weight for a "Gravity Challenge" guy like myself?

Something that you also mentioned was broadhead choice and its sharpness. You are spot on! you obviously speak with lots of experience.

Thanks and yes this is a great discussion!!

Mike

 

[nate simmons]

I'm in the same boat as Darin on this. Speed is not so cool to me any more. I have killed most of my elk with a total arrow weight of around 400 grains but have only had pass through shots on rare occasions (on both elk and mule deer) and that has drove me crazy with some marginal blood trails. I have recently bumped my setup up to 475 grains and while I'm still tinkering with my setup, I will never go lighter than 420 on western big game. The benefits of the added weight are too great to sacrifice for speed when faced with actual hunting conditions in my opinion.

 

[Rent Outdoor Gear]

A good buddy of mine just read my post in this thread and emailed me asking what I thought he should do. He shoots a ~385 grain Gold Tip 55/75 with 100 grain point. He likes it and hasn't had any problems...

Guys it's just my opinion - a fairly well educated one, but also a biased opinion based on my personal experiences. Here's what I wrote...
_______________________
I do prefer a heavier arrow - I believe they're just a bit more forgiving on less than ideal shots. Chances are, your 385 grain arrow is going to work fine just like always. You could also argue that the flatter trajectory of the light arrow will be more forgiving on yardage estimation mistakes. That's a valid point and range estimating errors happen more often than not when you don't have time to use the rangefinder. I'm admittedly a little biased because of my bad experience - the fact it was a giant buck etc... If taken to extremes, both lines of thinking (heavy vs. lightweight) have obvious trade-offs.

In my opinion, a good compromise is somewhere in the 420 - 450 grain range. I like my hunting bows to shoot around 280 fps (29" draw, 70 - 73# draw weight) since I usually use fixed blade broadheads. I've had setups that grouped well at speeds up to 310 fps with broadheads, but pretty much every 280 fps (and slower) setup I've had will shoot lights out with smallish (1 1/8") fixed blade broadheads and a 3.6" helical fletch.

I'm not sure it's worth switching arrows right now if you like what you're shooting - you could always try 125 grain broadheads...

Lots of options for you man. Feel free to ask if you want to bounce more ideas off me. There's always more than one way to skin a cat. Making it taste like chicken is the hard part!
____________________________________

[I'm pretty proud of the last sentence - I just came up with it - probably the smartest thing I've written on here so far! LOL!]

There have been some other great points made as well - heavier arrows will also drift less in the wind.

The broken shafts are pretty hard to believe - that seems like a structural issue with that particular arrow - SCARY!! I'm not sure that's a good indicator of what happens to all lightweight arrows, but certainly lighter shafts are going to sacrifice some degree of durability/integrity inside a bony animal at high velocities.

Coop

 

[Rent Outdoor Gear]

A couple more quick points. The arrows I have hunted with the past few seasons were Easton Axis FMJ .340's with 50-grain brass inserts and 100-grain broadheads. Pretty sure they weighed 482 grains. I also played with and used 75 grain brass inserts but came back to my favorite spot of about 150 grains of total point weight. This year I'm shooting the Easton A/C Injexion shafts currently and have been very pleased with the groups they're shooting. I do wish I could get a 50 grain insert for them. I honestly haven't put them on the scale since I first weighed the components. They're cut a bit longer than my FMJ's and I think they weigh about 435 - 440 grains. My pin gaps have tightened up noticeably. My bow was shooting about 3.5" high at 40 yards after the switch (sighted the 20 yard pin using gang adjust). Seems like a lot, but that's the difference if I misjudged the distancy by 20 yards. If I misjudge the distance by 5 yards the arrows are within an inch. Still a measurable advantage in trajectory to the light arrow and the slimmer diameter should help it penetrate better and drift less in the wind to make up for some of the lost mass weight.

 

[ElkNut1]

Darin, good reasoning & comments! Last year I shot nearly the exact setup as you described with the use of the FMJ's, only difference is I shot 300's instead of 340's. The year before was 430grn & took 2 bulls with them. It seems you like tinkering like I do! (grin) I'm really big on heavy front ends, I believe it stems from shooting trad gear for a few years! I took a bull with a 495grn arrow with a standard 15grn insert & a 125grn SnufferSS out of a 2216 aluminum shaft, drove it to about 3-4 inches of feathers. The next bull I took I used same 55# longbow but this time a beman classic carbon 500 spine & 75grn brass insert with the same SnufferSS 125 head with arrow weighing 501grn, that bull I had a complete pass through. I attributed the better penetration to the heavier front end even though both arrows weighed near the same, both bulls were broadside shots. Since then I've taken a few more elk & deer with great results with the extra wt up-front as you yourself are doing!

If your buddy likes his aprox arrow wt to stay the same but desires more penetration & no speed loss he too can do as we have done. He will have to change arrows but he can easily achieve a 385grn total arrow wt with aprox 175 grns up-front in a 340 spine arrow. It will be a penetrating monster in comparison to his present setup! (grin)

MJ, (Mike) I shoot 27" arrows & can get to any arrow wt I desire from 375grns to 700grn or more. (I don't want less) It's all in arrow choice or grains per inch & brass inserts. My present testing arrow is a 340 Victory HV at 27" at 6.7grn per inch, I'm adding a 50grn insert & 125 head for 175 up-front + nock & fletchings. I'm roughly at 385grn. If I wanted a heavier setup I could add a 100grn brass insert & be at 435grn. If I wanted heavier arrows I would simple get an arrow that went from 7.5grn per inch to 8.5grn per inch. One thing that would stay the same is my aprox front-end wt. 175grn aprox, I would then add my 28grn for nock & 3-fletch blazers that's 203grn. If I wanted a finish of 475grn I would need an arrow shaft that weighed the extra 272grn & divide that by your arrow length of 26" -- This calculates out to a raw shaft of 10.5 grns to get you to 475grn. There are several choices in that range of arrows for you to choose from! A spine change may be needed but most likely not if you stay in the 340-350 spine area.

As you can see the skies the limit, you can pretty much build any wt arrow you may desire by taking advantage of all that's out there!

ElkNut1