Elk Rifle Advice... again....

[coloradocelt]

338 Win Mag is my go to elk caliber. Been doing the job for 30 plus years.

 

[Formidilosus]

Assumption: You plan on shooting more than 300 yards.

I shoot literal tons of ammunition past 300 yards a year. Lots of that from “pencil” barrels.

My experience with pencil thin barrels above a short action calibers (270, 30-06, 300 win mag) has taught me:

What is magical about a half inch of action length that causes issues, but a half inch shorter doesn’t?

1. It will take you a lot longer to work up and train up... You can't go blasting away 3 round groups, back to back... and with magnums you probably can't even string more than 2 without letting your barrel cool. Otherwise you are going to chase rounds all over your target. They heat up quick and once they do the harmonic is off.

That’s not factually how any decent barrel works at all. I’ll happily shoot 10 round groups from #1 and 2 barrels back, to back, to back. Mirage from the barrel, and accelerated barrel wear are the only negative issues. They’ll group inside the cone until they start glowing.

2. They tend to be more finicky with temp changes. More so with the heavier calibers. Grab a gun out of a hot car and run out to shoot something in really cold weather and - well - good luck. You may or may not hit it...

I can’t tell if yourjoking, or if you actually believe this?

3. They are much more sensitive to load changes. Plan on shooting factory ammo? You might have issues with doing so at least accurately beyond 300 yards. Why? Think of a thin wire that you grab and move up and down. It doesn't take much to have the end of the wire "whipping". Now pick up a thicker stick and do it. Takes a lot more. Your barrel has a "harmonic" with each load. A thicker barrel takes more differences to change that harmonic significantly. A thinner barrel way less. (which is why (2) happens as well).

Again, you either are joking or have read some serious nonsense.

Trust me my first elk was with a pencil barrel 300 win mag. It can kill. But when I worked it up with factory ammo I burned a box and half chasing the sight in until I realized that I could not shoot more than a round (or two) and then had to let the barrel cool. Otherwise there was no way in hell I would get any groups. In fact, if I didn't let it cool, I could see them stringing in a vertical line.

My first elk was with a thin barrel 300 mag as well. 732 yards. The second, third, fourth, fifth, etc. we’re all killed with thin barrels, and all of them past 300 yards.

General rule of thumb... the more oomph the more barrel. The longer you want to shoot, the more barrel... For practical field purposes there is a point of diminishing returns to that.

That would be a general rule of people that don’t shoot enough.

What weight barrel would you say will no longer hold the vitals of a deer at 600 yards?

 

[Buffinnut]

 

[CorbLand]

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You got another chair? I will share my popcorn.

 

[Buffinnut]

You got another chair? I will share my popcorn.

We ready

 

[wildernessmaster]

Con’t....

But sometimes 20 rounds quick-

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However, it’s better with 30-
View attachment 260472



Every once in a while less to please the internet-
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View attachment 260467

Well I guess all the books and barrel engineering, written by PhD scientist is hog wash... Damn I am an idiot for listening to them. Oh wait I have actually experienced all three of those things too. Was I dropping acid?

Dude did YOU FREAKING READ what I wrote. Your example is a short action caliber... and a very easy on the barrel one at that (6.5 C). I swear the drive by authors on here drive me nuts. READ WHAT I WROTE.

 

[wildernessmaster]

Little confused by your second point. Assuming a bull barrel and a pencil barrel are the same temperature, how would putting them in the cold have different effects? Only reason I can see is that a bull barrel will retain heat longer but that would also cause issues.
example. You sight your gun in at 60 degrees. Then you warm your barrel in a hot car to say 100 degrees. The effect on the powder burn rate would be the same as a pencil barrel at 100 degrees. Taking this into account, wouldnt a thinner barrel actually be more beneficial since it will cool more quickly?

Also, barrel temp matters less that the temp of your cartridge since the cartridge is where the exothermic reaction is taking place.
Please let me know if I got this bass ackwards, I wasn’t a great physics student in highschool.

Its a lot of factors in the changing temp (and can be humidity, etc) factors.

Your example of a heavy barrel staying hotter is somewhat true, but it is also misleading. A heavy barrel actually dissipates heat quicker due to a greater overall surface area. Yeah a bit counter intuitive. More so metal doesn't have a high heat coefficient like some things like water so they cool/heat quick - generally speaking.

A heavy barrel in the process of going from hot to cold actually will have more (and more of a) uniform core (that provides the rigidity and harmonic) at a similar temp - because there is more thickness. So the temp change doesn't affect it as much.

Both heavy and thin barrel are doing the same things in heat transitions, but back to my wire analogy, it just takes a lot less with the thin wire to throw things of than the thick.

And before Mr "BS My 6.5C Calls Hogwash Politely" Please go read. I did a lot of research on this when I was building some of my hunting guns. And I will happily have some of my Delta sniper buddies argue with you on this...

My (note M Y) rule of thumb I use (somewhat restated)
- If the caliber is in the short action (308) and below and the barrel is 22" or less I will shoot a thinner barrel profile. As Mr "BS My 6.5C Calls Hogwash Politely" said a 6.5 will shoot pretty well with a pencil barrel. That said, I noted probably heat related dispersion in those pictures he posted.
- If its a hot short action (e.g. 308 loaded with 175gr pushing the load cap) or the barrel is more than 22" I will use a profile a bit thicker but not the thinnest (I have developed some sizes personally what work well by shooting a lot of barrels).
- If it is anything above a short action caliber (280 AI, 30-06, magnums, etc) I generally go with a thicker barrel, progressively getting thicker as the energy in the load goes up. For instance my 7 Rem Mag I am building has a barrel with and end of .76" - that is about as small as I will go with a 24" barrel in the round.
- For those above short action calibers (280, 30-06, magnums...) as the barrel length lengthens the barrel may need to get a bit thicker.
- I also generally flute any greater than short actions with barrels above 22" to: a) provide a slight amount more of rigidity (there are arguments on if this is true or not) b) more so to increase the surface area to dissipate heat.

 

[wildernessmaster]

Con’t....

But sometimes 20 rounds quick-

View attachment 260465



However, it’s better with 30-
View attachment 260472



Every once in a while less to please the internet-
View attachment 260466
View attachment 260467

BTW... With a 6.5C at 100 yards you should have all those bullets almost in a single hole. You might want to check your setup; do some load development, or work on the shooting.

I shoot literal tons of ammunition past 300 yards a year. Lots of that from “pencil” barrels.




What is magical about a half inch of action length that causes issues, but a half inch shorter doesn’t?




That’s not factually how any decent barrel works at all. I’ll happily shoot 10 round groups from #1 and 2 barrels back, to back, to back. Mirage from the barrel, and accelerated barrel wear are the only negative issues. They’ll group inside the cone until they start glowing.




I can’t tell if yourjoking, or if you actually believe this?




Again, you either are joking or have read some serious nonsense.




My first elk was with a thin barrel 300 mag as well. 732 yards. The second, third, fourth, fifth, etc. we’re all killed with thin barrels, and all of them past 300 yards.






That would be a general rule of people that don’t shoot enough.

What weight barrel would you say will no longer hold the vitals of a deer at 600 yards?

Again, you clearly know more than all the PhDs who do this for a living and ALL my SF/Delta sniper buddies who die if they don't do this right.

Feel free to ignore my post furthers as you seem to know it all.

 

[wildernessmaster]

I shoot literal tons of ammunition past 300 yards a year. Lots of that from “pencil” barrels.




What is magical about a half inch of action length that causes issues, but a half inch shorter doesn’t?




That’s not factually how any decent barrel works at all. I’ll happily shoot 10 round groups from #1 and 2 barrels back, to back, to back. Mirage from the barrel, and accelerated barrel wear are the only negative issues. They’ll group inside the cone until they start glowing.




I can’t tell if yourjoking, or if you actually believe this?




Again, you either are joking or have read some serious nonsense.




My first elk was with a thin barrel 300 mag as well. 732 yards. The second, third, fourth, fifth, etc. we’re all killed with thin barrels, and all of them past 300 yards.






That would be a general rule of people that don’t shoot enough.

What weight barrel would you say will no longer hold the vitals of a deer at 600 yards?

Oh and I promise you I have shot more in my life than you... probably more in a single day than you... Since we use to regularly put 5000+ rounds down range a day when I was training up.

You could only kill one out to 700 yards? I would watch on this forum talking about taking long shots at animals like that... A lot of people are "ethical nazis" on here... But 700 yards is just a starting point for my shooting

 

[TxxAgg]

Oh boy...

 

[wildernessmaster]

Oh boy...

Yeah I agree... But you won't be getting any more posts from me on this. So I apologize for the drama. I hope I helped the original poster if I didn't then to the whole group I apologize. The non readers and know it alls sometimes tick me off

 

[TxxAgg]

Yeah I agree... But you won't be getting any more posts from me on this. So I apologize for the drama. I hope I helped the original poster if I didn't then to the whole group I apologize. The non readers and know it alls sometimes tick me off

I think you should search Form's post history. He knows his stuff.

 

[Reburn]

Oh and I promise you I have shot more in my life than you... probably more in a single day than you... Since we use to regularly put 5000+ rounds down range a day when I was training up.

You could only kill one out to 700 yards? I would watch on this forum talking about taking long shots at animals like that... A lot of people are "ethical nazis" on here... But 700 yards is just a starting point for my shooting

It is? 700 yards starting point you say? You got really really good since 12-29-20. Best thing I saw on here recently was you selling a bunch of guns.

Too much bullet?

About a week ago I took a shot on a deer at about 200 yards. I normally can tell immediately watching through my scope if an animal is hit. This one stood still post shot (oddly) then walked into a trot off. At the time I thought the reaction weird. I walked down and walked around in decent...

www.rokslide.com

 

[LesPayne]

New to Rokslide myself. I really cannot get over how much knowledge is available here. I've been hunting Colorado Elk now for 25 years . Have taken them with 375 H&H ,on my first one. Was young thought that's what I needed. Have used 30-06 , 7 mm Mauser , but mostly 300 wby. The one thing that has been constant for all of them, Dead is dead. None of them cared what I was using. Congrats on treating yourself to a new rig. I recently have done the same. I've decided to go with the 6.5 PRC because I already had the 30 cal. Mag covered. Find something that's comfortable to you. I like the idea of having a litter mate of smaller caliber to practice with. Good Luck on your decision what ever it may be.

 

[ChrisAU]

Oh and I promise you I have shot more in my life than you... probably more in a single day than you... Since we use to regularly put 5000+ rounds down range a day when I was training up.

You could only kill one out to 700 yards? I would watch on this forum talking about taking long shots at animals like that... A lot of people are "ethical nazis" on here... But 700 yards is just a starting point for my shooting

 

[Reburn]

He likes it though. Here was another GEM he started.

Bow Set Ups and Arrow Set Ups

After having my first success with bow hunting, I am bitten by the bug and want to move to predominantly hunting with bow (vs gun - omg I may have to sell off a lot of guns!! :) ). To that end I am getting my bows set up for next season. I have 3 bows I am setting up arrows for. My goal is to...

www.rokslide.com

 

[Billy Goat]

I really wish I had something to add but I'm at a loss.

 

[Spoonbill]

Its a lot of factors in the changing temp (and can be humidity, etc) factors.

Your example of a heavy barrel staying hotter is somewhat true, but it is also misleading. A heavy barrel actually dissipates heat quicker due to a greater overall surface area. Yeah a bit counter intuitive. More so metal doesn't have a high heat coefficient like some things like water so they cool/heat quick - generally speaking.

A heavy barrel in the process of going from hot to cold actually will have more (and more of a) uniform core (that provides the rigidity and harmonic) at a similar temp - because there is more thickness. So the temp change doesn't affect it as much.

Both heavy and thin barrel are doing the same things in heat transitions, but back to my wire analogy, it just takes a lot less with the thin wire to throw things of than the thick.

And before Mr "BS My 6.5C Calls Hogwash Politely" Please go read. I did a lot of research on this when I was building some of my hunting guns. And I will happily have some of my Delta sniper buddies argue with you on this...

My (note M Y) rule of thumb I use (somewhat restated)
- If the caliber is in the short action (308) and below and the barrel is 22" or less I will shoot a thinner barrel profile. As Mr "BS My 6.5C Calls Hogwash Politely" said a 6.5 will shoot pretty well with a pencil barrel. That said, I noted probably heat related dispersion in those pictures he posted.
- If its a hot short action (e.g. 308 loaded with 175gr pushing the load cap) or the barrel is more than 22" I will use a profile a bit thicker but not the thinnest (I have developed some sizes personally what work well by shooting a lot of barrels).
- If it is anything above a short action caliber (280 AI, 30-06, magnums, etc) I generally go with a thicker barrel, progressively getting thicker as the energy in the load goes up. For instance my 7 Rem Mag I am building has a barrel with and end of .76" - that is about as small as I will go with a 24" barrel in the round.

So a couple of things.
First, while a bull barrel does have greater surface area, a pencil barrel that is fluted would actually cool down quicker due to a.) an increase in surface area and b.) less metal to actually cool down/retain heat. Bull barrels take longer to warm up simply due to the greater amount of metal.
Also, I am not sure how a 6.5cm and a 308 would perform differently out of a pencil barrel. They burn roughly the same amount of power.

Little off topic, but you lose credibility with comments like “my delta sniper buddies will prove you wrong.” I can’t follow the corelation from being able to shoot well to inderstanding how the mechanics of a barrl work. And I dudes in CAG aren’t going to out themselves on an internet forum to prove a point.

 

[Billy Goat]

Found something to add:

 

[Buffinnut]