Elk Hunting Montana Outfitters

[Sadler]

OH, I forgot about that! They also paved the way this year for exactly that and legalized private organizations reimbursing individuals for their expenses related to wolf hunting and trapping. So far no organization has materialized to my knowledge, but I'd be willing to bet it won't take long. I bought a SxS with tracks specifically to get after wolves this year and I'm going to take my trapping certification this spring so I'm pretty excited about being able to get help with those expenses and decrease the population of wolves up here as much as I can.

I'm a member of the Foundation For Wildlife Management and they pay you for each wolf you kill in Idaho. I swore I saw something about them starting to expand to Montana this year. Either way, it'll be worth checking out

 

[Sadler]

How many deer/elk are killed by lions in Region 1? What's the estimated lion population? How about the same for wolves? How many elk/deer do hunters kill in Region 1 each year?

Estimated wolf population in Region 1 is 80 packs and 500 Wolves in 2020. Approximately 45% of the wolf population of Montana according to FWP.

In 2015 FWP estimated 1,308 lions in Region 1.

 

[strattonje2020]

Estimated wolf population in Region 1 is 80 packs and 500 Wolves in 2020. Approximately 45% of the wolf population of Montana according to FWP.

In 2015 FWP estimated 1,308 lions in Region 1.

No wonder the game population sucks in the nw. Hope doing this will turn it around in the next 5-10 years.
I would say the one thing limiting human influence in the nw is it has to be the toughest elk country I’ve seen.

 

[Sadler]

No wonder the game population sucks in the nw. Hope doing this will turn it around in the next 5-10 years.
I would say the one thing limiting human influence in the nw is it has to be the toughest elk country I’ve seen.

Yep. It takes a lot of elk and deer to feed those predators. Thats not even counting the black and grizzly bears. I think its safe to say that predators are a big problem in that region.

 

[Ross]

All of my wolf photos are on the border of unit 121 Montana and unit 4 4a and 3 of Idaho crazy How many there are and thus the reason unit 4 was getting $2000 per wolf from them…..I get to stay in the loop of some good success stories thankfully

 

[BuzzH]

Estimated wolf population in Region 1 is 80 packs and 500 Wolves in 2020. Approximately 45% of the wolf population of Montana according to FWP.

In 2015 FWP estimated 1,308 lions in Region 1.

Right,

Deer/elk/moose a week for lions...52x 1308, advanced college math...68,000 elk/deer/moose a year.

500 wolves, 16-22 ungulates per wolf per year...again advance college math...11,000 elk/deer/moose a year.

Seems to me there should be a bounty on lions in Region 1 and we should allow 10 tags per hunter, night hunting, snaring, trapping, etc. Lions kill 6 ungulates to every 1 a wolf kills...nobody likes to talk about that though.

Its all the wolves....

Montana hunters kill around 185,000 elk, deer, moose per year...

Wolves are getting all the deer, elk, and moose....rigggghhhhtttt.

 

[Sadler]

Right,

Deer/elk/moose a week for lions...52x 1308, advanced college math...68,000 elk/deer/moose a year.

500 wolves, 16-22 ungulates per wolf per year...again advance college math...11,000 elk/deer/moose a year.

Seems to me there should be a bounty on lions in Region 1 and we should allow 10 tags per hunter, night hunting, snaring, trapping, etc. Lions kill 6 ungulates to every 1 a wolf kills...nobody likes to talk about that though.

Its all the wolves....

Montana hunters kill around 185,000 elk, deer, moose per year...

Wolves are getting all the deer, elk, and moose....rigggghhhhtttt.

In Region 1 hunters killed less than 10,000 elk, moose and deer in 2020. Wolves alone killed more than hunters.

Not arguing that lions aren’t a problem but mine and most peoples complaint is that wolves were brought back into the fold, making ungulate numbers suffer even more.

 

[BuzzH]

In Region 1 hunters killed less than 10,000 elk, moose and deer in 2020. Wolves alone killed more than hunters.

Not arguing that lions aren’t a problem but mine and most peoples complaint is that wolves were brought back into the fold, making ungulate numbers suffer even more.

Cut the lion population in half...wolf predation isn't even an issue anymore.

 

[mtluckydan]

Problem is Buzz you must have got an F in math or maybe that was common sense. Another thread where everyone else sucks and you're the only one right. It amazes me how anti-game, pro wolf you are. You take a guy like Ross who has lived in these woods for decades and just discount everything he or others say regardless of what's happening on the ground as opposed to what your government friends are trying to sell. When all is said and done, it is all the above...bears, cats and wolves.

I can just say that the hunting and more importantly the age structure of the herds has suffered immensely from the wolves. I've watched it happen first hand over the last twenty years in NW Montana and there are dozens of other guys around Montana, Idaho and Wyoming that have witnessed the same thing. They are good hunters just like you, but you continue to blame MTFWP for mismanagement when in fact it is the Federal Government who forced this on all of us along with the liberal animal rights groups who obviously have an agenda far different than hunters and sportsmen. Then they continued the program with liberal judges that wouldn't allow the wolves, and now grizzly bears, to be delisted when they met the quotas set by your government friends.

For wolves, an act of Congress is the only reason they're not still listed as an Endangered Species. There's so many grizzly bears here now it's dangerous every time we pack meat out of the woods and have to make return trips. Multiple people have been killed and mauled by the grizzly bears and guess what - still can't get them delisted just like the wolves. Meanwhile, you still try to peddle your bs that the wolves aren't the problem - the hunters suck, the guides suck, the MTFWP sucks. I guess everyone sucks but you Buzz. We suck at deer hunting, elk hunting and now wolf hunting. Still wondering how much money you made off the wolves Buzz??

 

[BuzzH]

Problem is Buzz you must have got an F in math or maybe that was common sense. Another thread where everyone else sucks and you're the only one right. It amazes me how anti-game, pro wolf you are. You take a guy like Ross who has lived in these woods for decades and just discount everything he or others say regardless of what's happening on the ground as opposed to what your government friends are trying to sell. When all is said and done, it is all the above...bears, cats and wolves.

I can just say that the hunting and more importantly the age structure of the herds has suffered immensely from the wolves. I've watched it happen first hand over the last twenty years in NW Montana and there are dozens of other guys around Montana, Idaho and Wyoming that have witnessed the same thing. They are good hunters just like you, but you continue to blame MTFWP for mismanagement when in fact it is the Federal Government who forced this on all of us along with the liberal animal rights groups who obviously have an agenda far different than hunters and sportsmen. Then they continued the program with liberal judges that wouldn't allow the wolves, and now grizzly bears, to be delisted when they met the quotas set by your government friends.

For wolves, an act of Congress is the only reason they're not still listed as an Endangered Species. There's so many grizzly bears here now it's dangerous every time we pack meat out of the woods and have to make return trips. Multiple people have been killed and mauled by the grizzly bears and guess what - still can't get them delisted just like the wolves. Meanwhile, you still try to peddle your bs that the wolves aren't the problem - the hunters suck, the guides suck, the MTFWP sucks. I guess everyone sucks but you Buzz. We suck at deer hunting, elk hunting and now wolf hunting. Still wondering how much money you made off the wolves Buzz??

Common sense?

Yeah, lets have the discussion.

Just look at the simple math and numbers, lions kill ungulates in Region 1 at a 6-1 rate over wolves. Its simple biological fact based on known populations and predation rates. If you have a problem with that, take it up with the MTFWP and the mountains of peer-reviewed science and simple common sense.

How about Montana FWP mismanagement, again common sense. Please explain how elk objective numbers were reached, I remember exactly how they were reached, lived it and not forced to guess. It had NOTHING to do with biology, available habitat, or carrying capacity. Name the last time the MTFWP managed a single herd of elk in Montana based on age structure, bull to cow ratio's or cow/calf ratio's. Tell me the last time that Montana adjusted a single season to reflect maintaining any quality, any bull to cow ratio, etc. in NW Montana. I can tell you that I bought my first hunting licenses in Montana in 1979, $2 each for deer A and Elk. The ONLY change to the season structure since 1979 has been the addition of a youth weekend for deer, and a Saturday start from the traditional Sunday start...and now an additional muzzleloader season into December....brilliant idea with struggling herds. My Father bought his first hunting licenses in 1957, gee, guess what? Same season structure in 1957-2021. The Montana FWP, literally, manages like its 1957...you think that's proper? That's management?

Apparently you and I don't run in similar circles of "good hunters". The ones I know and hunt with are pretty hard core. I don't know a single one that blames wolves for MTFWP mismanagement of both elk and deer. They all agree, down to every last one, that the EMP, same season structure since the 1950's, and increased and tremendous human hunting pressure, for up to 6 months is where the real impact is. None deny predation has an impact, but they also aren't blind fools and can read sign. When you cut 10 lion tracks for every wolf track, understand predation rates, they draw some pretty easy conclusions on where the most impact is. If you don't believe it, read up on the Idaho and Montana predation studies specific to elk...its not wolves that are the top predator. If you still don't believe it, get off the couch and try some trapping in NW Montana. It was a pain in the ass keeping lions out of my bobcat sets, not a pain in the ass keeping wolves out of them.

Lets also not forget that Montana has had management authority over lions ever since they were classified as big game in 1976. Don't pretend that I didn't listen to the high pitched whining as the Montana Houndsmen Association cried about too high of lion quotas. Or how I saw the quota's, and harvest change in the area I hunt on cats from over 100 a year down to 10, and go to LE permit only. The Federal Government has never intervened in lion management, but special interest hound hunters sure as shit have...

Also, Montana has had a long time to manage wolves and they've been killing them here, legally since the late 90's thanks to the 10j designation. How long has Montana had full management of them? Its not my problem that those bitching the loudest about wolves, who can't even find elk to kill, are too lazy or busy arguing on the 'net to kill a few. Montana wolf hunters have the ability to manage nearly all the wolves they want...yet don't do it. Excuse after excuse...too hard, they're nocturnal, don't have the time, they're too smart, and my favorite, "I forgot to buy a wolf tag". All lame excuses...nothing more.

With you, I can assure you, when all is said and done, there will be a lot more said than is ever done.

Carry on with your BS...

 

[mtluckydan]

Guess I touched a nerve Buzz when I mentioned common sense. Let's talk about numbers. I actually don't spend my time on a couch. I used to be a hardcore shed hunter. I found piles of sheds...every year. I walked more than a thousand miles a winter in the woods and saw exactly what both lions and wolves killed. Wolves did far more damage than lions. I found a couple dozen elk sheds one winter up the Southfork of the Flathead. The snow stayed late and the wolves waited until the mature bulls shed their antlers...then they killed them. I drew a moose tag in the Yaak in 2013. I scouted every weekend from when I drew the tag until the season opened. I killed a mature bull the first day of the season at 7:15 on opening day. That was the first live moose I saw all year. I did find numerous dead moose and I saw the wolves that killed them.

I used to find half a dozen mature whitetail bucks every shed season. They usually were off by themselves away from the other deer and the lions keyed in on them and killed them. Since the wolves came around, you don't find mature bucks off by themselves because they're either already dead or they learned they can't survive the wolves. The wolves kill them and eat their antlers and most everything else so it's quite easy to see what did the damage.

I actually have the hardcopy of the 2004 Draft Elk Management Plan for Montana as part of my hunting library. If you look at page 46, they go into great detail about wolves and other predators. You can read can't you Buzz?? It clearly states how concerned most hunters surveyed are about the damage wolves and other predators are having on elk. You cited in one of your earlier posts with respect to flyover counts of elk being so low, they shouldn't be able to hunt those populations. On page 104 of the elk management plan "The heavily forested habitats in much of FWP Region 1 result in considerable year-to-year variability in observed elk numbers that is independent of actual population trends." For your benefit, that means you can't fully count the population by flyover and again you misrepresent the facts in your posts.

I actually have attended meetings with respect to setting cat quotas - surprise, surprise - the biggest concern FWP had was getting sued by liberal anti-hunting groups if the perceived cat population got too low. Yes the houndsmen were there and they don't want to see the population of cats obliterated, but the FWP biologists said the wolves kill the cats right along with everything else except the largest toms if they make it up a tree. With recent cat studies being conducted, MTFWP now has solid GPS data throughout the state and are adjusting harvest quotas accordingly.

As far as biologist and numbers, I know multiple biologists quite well. They will never speak on the record what they think of the wolves because it's not politically correct and they get taken aside. The meetings they went to involved multiple agencies and for better or worse, funding was tied to the numbers. The numbers are more or less meaningless. They know the wolves are wreaking havoc and they kill as many as they can get away with by flying and trapping at the expense of our valuable conservation dollars. The game area near lost Prairie where large numbers of elk winter has had management activities for years or we wouldn't have any elk left in NW Montana. Elk travel from great distances to winter there.

In the end Buzz, we'll never agree. The issue is complicated, but you continuously insult people and are just plain obnoxious. As far as elk outfitters, you guys should look in Buzz's area in Wyoming as wolves aren't a problem there. Buzz and his friend - singular - keep all the wolves thinned out as he's a superior hunter and he's changed or is working on it to severely limit non-residents chances to get a tag so the hunting will be excellent if you draw. As far as NW Montana is concerned, I agree with others above and say save your money - the hunting will never be the same and even though Buzz doesn't agree - the wolves have changed the face of hunting forever - not for the better.

 

[171farm]

Wow...this post really took a turn. Though the information is great for the overall area of Montana, the main post was started about a specific outfitter. Im going to be posting my review about said outfitter in a different post that hopefully is left for the outfitter specific

 

[jjohnsonElknewbie]

@mtluckydan @BuzzH- You both obviously have passion, experience, and expertise on both the history of management and regs in MT. One question for the both of you. If lions are responsible for more kills than wolves, and wolves are known to kill lions, is there even a need to reduce lion quotas or will the continued expansion of wolves take care of this problem naturally?

Anecdotally, I've read that wolves pushed lions out of traditional areas (i believe this case study was in Yellowstone) where they were comfortable/successful hunting ungulates. The wolves displaced the lions into steeper and more difficult country where there are fewer animals that are more dificult for them to hunt. This increased the success/health of the wolf packs at the detriment of the lions.

So if wolves kill lions when they can, and in parallel haze them into undesirable areas, it seems to me that this 1-2 punch "should" reduce lion impact on big game animals. If this logic holds (and can be supported with impartial scientific evidence) it sounds like MTFWP should focus less on wolves until they get lion populations to acceptable levels and then re-prioritize wolf management afterwards with the same goals in mind. One key assumption is that wolves can more efficiently manage lions than people.

Going back to one of my original points, the MTFWP elk management plan will continue to be marginally effective until they are able to collect better population data. You guys have already argued that areas in NW MT are extremely difficult to survey and dependent on weather, snow pack, etc.... So in some places estimates are sometimes a best guess.

If populations estimates are a best guess, and there isn't mandatory harvest reporting to document in which units elk are being harvested, what data is the EMP actually based on? Harvest reporting in Iowa is slick as snot with a simple automated phone system. Provide the registration number on the tag, sex of the deer, county harvested, and you're done. Not sure why in 2022 MT has not adopted something similar.

 

[BuzzH]

@mtluckydan @BuzzH- You both obviously have passion, experience, and expertise on both the history of management and regs in MT. One question for the both of you. If lions are responsible for more kills than wolves, and wolves are known to kill lions, is there even a need to reduce lion quotas or will the continued expansion of wolves take care of this problem naturally?

Anecdotally, I've read that wolves pushed lions out of traditional areas (i believe this case study was in Yellowstone) where they were comfortable/successful hunting ungulates. The wolves displaced the lions into steeper and more difficult country where there are fewer animals that are more dificult for them to hunt. This increased the success/health of the wolf packs at the detriment of the lions.

So if wolves kill lions when they can, and in parallel haze them into undesirable areas, it seems to me that this 1-2 punch "should" reduce lion impact on big game animals. If this logic holds (and can be supported with impartial scientific evidence) it sounds like MTFWP should focus less on wolves until they get lion populations to acceptable levels and then re-prioritize wolf management afterwards with the same goals in mind. One key assumption is that wolves can more efficiently manage lions than people.

Going back to one of my original points, the MTFWP elk management plan will continue to be marginally effective until they are able to collect better population data. You guys have already argued that areas in NW MT are extremely difficult to survey and dependent on weather, snow pack, etc.... So in some places estimates are sometimes a best guess.

If populations estimates are a best guess, and there isn't mandatory harvest reporting to document in which units elk are being harvested, what data is the EMP actually based on? Harvest reporting in Iowa is slick as snot with a simple automated phone system. Provide the registration number on the tag, sex of the deer, county harvested, and you're done. Not sure why in 2022 MT has not adopted something similar.

Here's some things to look at, in particular the Bitterroot Elk Study.

GOHUNT // The Hunting Company

GOHUNT empowers hunters with the tools, technology, gear, and resources they need to get the most out of their time in the field.

www.gohunt.com

The entire study is very well done, and I'm a life member of a couple of the Sportsmen's groups that provided not only the funding for this study, but the push to make it happen. You can find it really easy on the net.

The hypothesis was that wolves were killing all the elk...not what they found.

For the record, its also taken a Herculean effort to get the MTFWP to increase lion quota's in the 'root as well since the data was published in 2016 (IIRC). Why? Not because of liberal judges or whatever BS mtluckydan likes to blame his woes on...100% pressure from houndsmen. In spite of what mtluckydan says, there never has been any kind of concerted effort by the "liberal anti-hunters" that have influenced any kind of lion management in Montana. There was a very well orchestrated effort by the houndsmen starting in the mid-90's to totally change lion hunting in Montana. Their efforts reduced, by over 90%, the lion harvest. It also changed from an open quota where everyone could buy a tag, to LE for lion permits. Their complaint was that the quotas were filling too fast, as in just a few days at times (wonder why that would be? Maybe more lions around than anyone thought). They also complained of no really big toms, again no brainer when that's where a majority of the outfitters and houndsmen focus their harvest. You can imagine what happened when lion quotas were reduced by 90%, harvest decreased by 90% on lions.

That severe decrease in lion harvest, combined with more MTFWP mismanagement (tons of deer b tags including one OTC) really impacted the deer hunting in my favorite places in NW Montana. Its been a long slow recovery, even with no more OTC b-tags, and reductions in B-tags in the draw, and a slight increase in lion quotas. Mirror image of the MTFWP mismanagement for elk in the GYE.

That's one of the EXACT things that the Bitterroot study brought to light, we have a lot more lions than anyone thought.

Combine that with a statewide population of somewhere between 4000-5000 lions, in comparison to a wolf population of 1100-1200...its not hard to see where the biggest impact will be on deer, elk, and moose. In particular given the fact that lions out-kill wolves by 6-1 margin and are about 5 times more abundant than wolves. Doesn't take but third grade math and a single firing brain cell to see where the problem lies.

I also don't agree that wolf populations are going to ever be close to what the lion populations are in Montana given current harvest of wolves VS lions. Again, going from memory, I believe that Montana killed 439 lions in 2020 out of a population of 5,000. Wolves, out of population of 1100-1200, wolf hunters killed 328. We're killing 25-30% of the wolf population a year, we're killing about 7-8% of the lion population a year.

As to your other question about wolves killing lions, yes they do, enough to impact populations in a significant way? I think they can, I'm sure you're probably referencing the Teton study in Wyoming. According to that study lions did reduced cat populations by 40ish percent. I think how much wolves impact lion numbers depends on a lot of variables...prey base, habitat, pack size, lion density, etc.

I can say that from my personal hunting/trapping/fishing journals I've kept since the late 70's, as I've seen more wolf activity in my favorite spots, I have seen less lion activity. In my book, that's a good thing and I hope it continues. I probably still see 3-4 lion tracks per every wolf track, including this past fall while hunting there.

I'd much rather have a pack of 10 wolves in my hunting spot than 10 lions...all day long and twice on Sunday. I'd rather 10 wolves kill 160 ungulates in my spot, than lions killing 520.

The wolf hysteria is just unfounded BS (not be confused with actual science), people need to simply look at the facts.

 

[QuackAttack]

Sometimes, the answer is both.

In waterfowl, the biologists reached a point where they had to look at how many eggs become grown ducks.…not just flooded timber and cornfields in the US. The ugly truth was that about 1-2% of eggs make it to adult ducks (in mallards).

The primary reason is predation…by everything.

The duck boom in the 90s happened because DU and others stopped trying to build beautiful hunting spots in the US and started killing huge #s of predators.

Duck populations exploded. It got so high that we got a 60 day season and a 6 duck limit…up from. 30 days and 2 mallards.


If wolves and lions are both preying on the deer and elk…the obvious solution is to kill both in quantity.

 

[jjohnsonElknewbie]

To quote another member on the site, "Like anything else, if the grizzlies, wolves, cats, deer, and elk are all gonna thrive and be a healthy population they ALL need to be managed. I know it all comes at a cost but if we don’t pay for it now we will later and it won’t be good."

If I had my way, given the data provided thus far, I'd keep wolf harvest levels constant and increase lion quotas by 40%.

Eventually a grizz management plan needs to be implemented, but that is not going to happen overnight. The guides in our camp are disgusted by the state of grizz politics in MT. According to them, every time a grizz is killed it gets more press than tragic deaths of women and children in the state. Somehow need to flip the script...

 

[Firestone]

Anytime somebody on rokslide believes that wolves have a role in the decline of ungulate populations.

 

[KurtR]

Sometimes, the answer is both.

In waterfowl, the biologists reached a point where they had to look at how many eggs become grown ducks.…not just flooded timber and cornfields in the US. The ugly truth was that about 1-2% of eggs make it to adult ducks (in mallards).

The primary reason is predation…by everything.

The duck boom in the 90s happened because DU and others stopped trying to build beautiful hunting spots in the US and started killing huge #s of predators.

Duck populations exploded. It got so high that we got a 60 day season and a 6 duck limit…up from. 30 days and 2 mallards.


If wolves and lions are both preying on the deer and elk…the obvious solution is to kill both in quantity.

On top of that we had some of the wettest years up here in the prairie pot hole region and crp was at an all time high. 1997 was my senior year in high school we missed alot of days that winter and up until the last year and half we have been wet. The decline in crp also follows the decline in ducks being hatched in the last decade.

completely off topic sorry

 

[BuzzH]

For some, comprehension is a major challenge.

 

[BuzzH]

On top of that we had some of the wettest years up here in the prairie pot hole region and crp was at an all time high. 1997 was my senior year in high school we missed alot of days that winter and up until the last year and half we have been wet. The decline in crp also follows the decline in ducks being hatched in the last decade.

completely off topic sorry

What? You mean quality habitat has something to do with increases in ducks, elk, deer, etc.? Is that what you're saying?

No way....sounds like a bunch of liberal mumbo-jumbo hippy stuff to me.

We'd have more ducks if it weren't for wolves.