Elk .243 or 25-06

[ORJoe]

I just don’t understand why people don’t practice situationally with there rifles. Hell most don’t even take the time to fry fire. We talk all this stuff about ethics and fast kills wouldn’t it ethically make sense to practice in field situations.

Because assuming "I got this" is more comfortable than the risk of knowing "I don't got this"

 

[Indian Summer]

do you pack a shooting bench into the back country?

No Roosie. That’s one of the reasons I shorten up my shots by several hundred yards from where I shoot from the Lead Sled at the range. I do have a hell of a solid tripod, not bipod, with a solid attachment to my gun to shoot from and I can use my internal frame day pack for a rear rest if I need to.

Funny you mention that because as I increase my range me and my partner have been talking about putting a bench at “Snipers Point”. It would be worth it. Originally I was going to go with a diy version. A heavy one made from lodgepole. I’d go up in the summer with cordless Dewalt sawzall and impact gun and make a nice snazzy log furniture type. I could even dig it into the ground. But I’m also looking at portable ones. Caldwell makes a decent one. I’d just cache it up at my glassing/shooting spot under a fir tree that’s thick to the ground. I haven’t decided yet. I like the log idea better. Heavy is better for a bench. It’s all part of my quest to be able to shoot elk to 1000 yards. That’s serious business to me so I’m working on building a gun right now that’s specifically for the job. It won’t be a gun a hunter would carry around the mountains. It’ll be another.300 Ultra Mag but with a heavy Lilja barrel and McMillan stock. Once I have that the answer to your question will be yes, I have a shooting bench.

I’m always thinking ahead in the big picture. I was hooked on elk hunting since day 1 and don’t ever want to have to live without looking forward to it. I can shoot bigger bulls in less days with that setup. But the thing that crosses my mind is I might be able to kill bulls way up there until I’m 80 or dead as long as I have a partner or two that can help get me to that spot. Once I’m there I don’t have to move. In the end they can sprinkle my ashes under that bench and take it over.

 

[ARK_Ginger]

In the grand scheme, it's a concept being discussed. What is said above says that well.

The title of the thread that you suggested is a good one. It puts a face to the hunter and the situation. 35 Whelen/AI need not apply in the scope of that poll. While being a good tool for the job, it's a fringe cartridge, and IMO, it's not reality the poll would be better with that included.

How about a second poll that allows bullet choice as well. Cup and core bullet, (whether long range or otherwise), bonded core, or mono.

Combine results of the chambering, with the bullet style that was chosen. Make that the poster child for the official rokslide first time western elk hunter recommendation.

I don't think that's the grand theme being discussed here at all. I would say it's closer to 'can smaller calibers kill elk as good as bigger calibers?' Bigger caliber advocates appeal to intangibles like "A gun that will get it done even when all the realities of the moment weigh in and he needs to rely on the widespread damage for 51% of his luck and shot placement for the rest." Smaller advocates say that's nonsense and instead appeal to practicable skill and bullet performance based on data often times provided in this very form.

You might as well combine the cambering and bullet style with a poll regarding hunting tactics. There are too many variables to make any chambering/bullet suggestion a poster child for a first time elk hunter in my opinion. Time would be better spent telling them to practice with what they have or find something they can practice with (like a peashooter) because ultimately it's the Indian not the arrow.

 

[35WhelenAI]

Yes, small calibers can kill when they reach the vitals just like a larger caliber.

But I'm not gonna go there and recommend a smaller caliber for a guy coming out to hunt elk for the first time. I'm not going to recommend a magnum either. I'm going to recommend a middle of the road chambering/caliber. Anyone that wants to recommend a 6 mm for a first time elk hunter, they are welcome to do that.

A shot that I would choose to take with a small caliber I would also choose to take with a larger caliber. There are shots I would not be comfortable taking with a smaller caliber that I would take with a larger caliber.

And please don't think when folks shoot larger calibers they don't have practicable skill and bullet performance as central to completing the task. Controlled expansion larger caliber bullets in my hunting can enter from a variety of shot presentations angles to make the vitals and the animal will be harvested. I would choose not do some of those angles with a smaller caliber frangible bullet that make stunning visual presentations upon necropsy. Nothing wrong with that, it's what I choose not to use and I don't give two camels ass licks how blown up the vitals are. Controlled expansion bullets from larger calibers put the animals on the ground just as dead when the shot takes out the vitals.

Little secret... controlled expansion bullets (in larger calibers or smaller) leave more meat for that first time western hunter if they hit heavy structure, they do add a margin of benefit if the shot angle is different than anticipated and definitely don't blow it up on a rib hit, and the animal dies! Wow.

Either way, smaller caliber or larger caliber with the shots each is capable of reliably completing it's a dead animal at the end of the day.

 

[BigNate]

This guy has killed a few! Worth reading.

Is there a perfect elk rifle?

I've been asked many questions about hunting over the years, given my full-time career as a hunting journalist, especially with Outdoor Life magazine. Of all those questions, the one most asked is my opinion on elk rifles. Most of those were from folks who didn't live in elk country and were...

www.jimzumbo.com

So you've proven the point I've tried to make. Thank you.

He's an old man that blames poor performance on caliber & cartridge rather than bullet choice. He says a 270W is marginal without mentioning what bullets gave him that impression. I quit reading there as he demonstrates his lack of understanding the results of what he's seen. Much like his foot-in-mouth blunder about AR15s, but that's another discussion altogether.

His friend is correct. It doesn't matter as much what you shoot if you shoot it well.

It does matter though if you don't understand what the bullet you're using will do, and if it will perform if you abuse it.

 

[35WhelenAI]

Mentioning the type of bullet would've helped Zumbo's cause there. I'd take a TTSX in a 270 Win from an angle on an elk in the timber or close up. Oh wait, my son took one dead on the sternum at 30 yds. It was his first elk two years ago, he was set up watching a draw. The elk kept coming and coming and coming and he finally decided they might just step on him so he shot. Reared up, front end came back down, collapsed where she stood. And that was a 110 TTSX. Not much heavier than 6MM projectiles, but more competent for any shot he may take than a frangible bullet.

 

[Marble]

He (F) helps a lot of folks with their shooting and reloading. Guy knows his way around a shooting range.

I'm not sure what you (S) do.

.243 is one of the more common elk cartridges out there - locals use em all the time.

I would never say a .243 is a common elk cartridge. That is why this discussion is going on so long. I have spoken to two people (both women) in the last 22 years that use a .243. And when discussing elk cartridges with other hunters while actually hunting, none have ever had a .243. Ever.

I hunt in the back country, not from a truck and I use horses to get in there.

It is even uncommon to see a short action rifle back there. There is a reason for all this and it's not rocket science to figure it out.

I just always come back to the thought of just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should. Just my opinion and experience.



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[Marble]

And I like the drill Form has posted up. How applicable it is? idk. I would like to do it. When supplies get to be easier/ cheaper to come by, I'll gladly do it for my range practice this year or next...

For me, 20 rounds from my elk rifle would generally equate to 5 years of shooting.

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[KurtR]

And I like the drill Form has posted up. How applicable it is? idk. I would like to do it. When supplies get to be easier/ cheaper to come by, I'll gladly do it for my range practice this year or next...

For me, 20 rounds from my elk rifle would generally equate to 5 years of shooting.

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Why would you only shoot 20 times in five years. If a archery hunter said that every one would loose their shit. Why do rifle hunters hold them selves to such a low standard

 

[Rich M]

Why would you only shoot 20 times in five years. If a archery hunter said that every one would loose their shit. Why do rifle hunters hold them selves to such a low standard

Rifle hunters are more apt to have multiple guns that they shoot.

Plus its easier to master a Gun than a bow.

 

[KurtR]

Rifle hunters are more apt to have multiple guns that they shoot.

Plus its easier to master a Gun than a bow.

I guess what your definition mastered is makes a difference. Had alot of guys tell me they are good to go till the shit is running down there leg and bullets are flying every where but the intended aiming point. Jerking triggers short stroking bolts and not following through being the worst culprits

 

[PAhunter58]

WOW, NOW UP TO 24 PAGES, ISN'T THE HORSE DEAD YET?

 

[KurtR]

WOW, NOW UP TO 24 PAGES, ISN'T THE HORSE DEAD YET?

24 pages is rookie numbers compared to the boal extravaganza

 

[MTWop]

24 pages is rookie numbers compared to the boal extravaganza

That lost trophy mule deer thread in the deer hunting forum is epic

 

[Marble]

Rifle hunters are more apt to have multiple guns that they shoot.

Plus its easier to master a Gun than a bow.

Yep. I actually shoot all year and hunt 3 days a week minimum. I just don't shoot my larger rifles at coyotes. It's too expensive.

I do shoot my bow most days and participate in lots of tournaments.


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[Marble]

I guess what your definition mastered is makes a difference. Had alot of guys tell me they are good to go till the shit is running down there leg and bullets are flying every where but the intended aiming point. Jerking triggers short stroking bolts and not following through being the worst culprits

And I'll admit... first year where I didn't kill an elk and it was my error. I missed...I just flat out failed to perform. It was a super tough shot but I should have made it.

In years past I've killed several deer and elk in the 400-500 yard range. I just had a crappy rest, at an uncomfortable position and I got a little excited.

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[Indian Summer]

Why would you only shoot 20 times in five years. If a archery hunter said that every one would loose their shit. Why do rifle hunters hold them selves to such a low standard

How old are you? How long have you been shooting the gun you hunt with? Is your scope the best you can afford?

I think the saying applies to this is “It’s like riding a bicycle” I love to shoot. But I don’t really need to. With a bow I think practicing your release regularly is important as is your form. With a shotgun you need to have your swing… your lead become second nature. Only regular practice can make that happen. At 40-50-60 years old shooting the same gun is like making a cup of Keurig coffe. Pop the round in chamber and push the button.

When I was younger and did more still hunting than sitting I was pretty darn good at using my shotgun skills with a rifle and I made great shots on running whitetails and mule deer. It was like rolling a fast running rabbit with my Rem 1187.

I suppose that doing so much shooting and hunting through my entire life has gotten me to the point where just a few rounds before season for general reasons is good enough.

When I go to public shooting ranges though I see your point. There are some people who can’t practice enough! One time I had a guy look at my target and offer to trade me his Weatherby Mark V for my scoped 12 gauge shotgun. Lol I told him if you can’t shoot that you can’t shoot this. It’s not the gun it’s the shooter…. assuming your gun is set up properly and maintained.

If I shot the 20 round drill and wasn’t able to say every shot is a dead elk the only lesson learned would be to slow down. And also don’t hunt using techniques that result in split second shots. The drill assumes the shooter is under pressure and it’s now or never.

My drill is take your time and make every single shot count. If you need to practice to make that happen then by all means do it.

 

[KurtR]

How old are you? How long have you been shooting the gun you hunt with? Is your scope the best you can afford?

I think the saying applies to this is “It’s like riding a bicycle” I love to shoot. But I don’t really need to. With a bow I think practicing your release regularly is important as is your form. With a shotgun you need to have your swing… your lead become second nature. Only regular practice can make that happen. At 40-50-60 years old shooting the same gun is like making a cup of Keurig coffe. Pop the round in chamber and push the button.

When I was younger and did more still hunting than sitting I was pretty darn good at using my shotgun skills with a rifle and I made great shots on running whitetails and mule deer. It was like rolling a fast running rabbit with my Rem 1187.

I suppose that doing so much shooting and hunting through my entire life has gotten me to the point where just a few rounds before season for general reasons is good enough.

When I go to public shooting ranges though I see your point. There are some people who can’t practice enough! One time I had a guy look at my target and offer to trade me his Weatherby Mark V for my scoped 12 gauge shotgun. Lol I told him if you can’t shoot that you can’t shoot this. It’s not the gun it’s the shooter…. assuming your gun is set up properly and maintained.

If I shot the 20 round drill and wasn’t able to say every shot is a dead elk the only lesson learned would be to slow down. And also don’t hunt using techniques that result in split second shots. The drill assumes the shooter is under pressure and it’s now or never.

My drill is take your time and make every single shot count. If you need to practice to make that happen then by all means do it.

42, shooting the rifle i got built for a decade or so on the third tube I could afford a better scope but have gotten away from shooting comps so it will suffice. I still sit in my house and dry fire and practice bolt manipulation as it is a stress reliever.

My shooting has dropped of alot in the last year like to around a 1000 rounds or so now that i have gotten a new lab and got into running tests and trails. Didnt even shoot a deer last year as every bit of free time was either training or waterfowl hunting which has been my favorite for ever any way. I shoot my shotgun better than a rifle .

Benefit of living in the middle of nowhere i am 5 minutes from doing what ever be it shooting hunting or dog training.

 

[Indian Summer]

42, shooting the rifle i got built for a decade or so on the third tube I could afford a better scope but have gotten away from shooting comps so it will suffice. I still sit in my house and dry fire and practice bolt manipulation as it is a stress reliever.

My shooting has dropped of alot in the last year like to around a 1000 rounds or so now that i have gotten a new lab and got into running tests and trails. Didnt even shoot a deer last year as every bit of free time was either training or waterfowl hunting which has been my favorite for ever any way. I shoot my shotgun better than a rifle .

Benefit of living in the middle of nowhere i am 5 minutes from doing what ever be it shooting hunting or dog training.

Livin’ the dream brother! I live in between woods hayfields and cow pastures myself. That’s my stress reliever. At 1000 rounds per year that’s not practice! You’re shooting mostly for fun. I’m sure it keeps you sharp though.

 

[Formidilosus]

Livin’ the dream brother! I live in between woods hayfields and cow pastures myself. That’s my stress reliever. At 1000 rounds per year that’s not practice! You’re shooting mostly for fun. I’m sure it keeps you sharp though.

Shooting a thousand rounds a year, is equivalent to driving a thousand miles a years. Are a basketball player shooting a thousand shots. No one would think a thousand shots total in practice for basketball a year is enough.
While you post things that aren’t factual with regards to terminal ballistics, this whole “I don’t practice but I will shoot an animal l at 1,000 yards” nonsense is ridiculous. Shooting is a perishable skill. Reading wind is extremely perishable.


Please tell us about the 300 RUM that shoots 200gr Accubonds at 3,600 MV. What’s the barrel length? What scope?