drones and fair chase

[realunlucky]

All you self proclaimed libertarians are sure quick to jump on the bandwagon of government squashing out a person's right.

Again, I'm not saying they should be legal during hunting season, but what's the harm in learning the lay of the land in June/July with a drone, if you have stupid amounts of money/free time in order to pull this off in the first place? What right is it of the game and fish to tell us NOT to fly our personal model planes around?


Just playing devil's advocate... it just seems all to frequent we are all anti-government and pro-rights until it's something that goes against what we would personally do, then it's okay for government intervention inhibiting our rights. I'd never partake in the activity, but would stand up for my fellow brethren for their right to fly RC airplanes with cameras strapped to them for fun during the summer if they so please. With 3-D mapping, topos, and aerials already readily available online and trail cams legal in most states to run during the off season to track game movement/inventory the herd.... I don't see much of the advantage to drones especially given their extremely high cost.

Is it ethical to monitor an animal 24/7 ? Sounds like it violates fair chase to me. Of course I'm from a place where only the cost of the tag dictate s what's considered fair chase

 

[Jimbob]

Where do you draw the line? Maps made by other people are ok? GPS with electronic maps are ok? Satellite images are ok? Plane rides are ok? Are all these things ok because they just tell you about the land and not the animals? I think for me that is the reason that stuff is fine. However when you start using technology to pinpoint and locate game then it comes into question.

So trail cams are ok? What about magnification technology? Spotter scopes and bins? Those things are super high tech and give hunters a HUGE advantage.

What is the difference between a $3000 pair of binoculars that helps you see something that you wouldn't other wise be able to see and a $3000 drone that helps you see something that you wouldn't otherwise be able to see?

I'm just spitballing thoughts here. We as hunters use a lot of "technology" and we need to be able to logically draw a line and not just spout our own personal opinions as the standard for everyone. Like I said just some thoughts I'm not criticizing anyone here.

 

[TEmbry]

If used to survey the land I see it as a great albeit expensive tool. If used to check on game I see it as similar to a lazy version of trail cams.

If you are "chasing animals around" with one that would constitute wildlife harassment.

Again I don't have interest in it, but to tell a man he can't fly around a toy helicopter/plane on public land during his free time seems absurd to me!

 

[robby denning]

This is a tough one for me as I've spent hundreds of hours in the air PRESEASON scouting. Drones seem like a bad idea, but then I might be a hypocrite by saying that.
Seems to relate to the debate a few years back that ended up banning Remote Internet Operated Guns, i.e. sit at computer and shoot animals from a remotely operated gun somewhere else on planet. That was clearly something that needed banned as they were killing the animal.

Every state has aerial scouting laws ranging from liberal to conservative plus we have the umbrella of the Federal Airborne Hunting Act. It's pretty easy to stay legal under those laws if a drone were operated under them.

Glad Colorado got out front and just banned them. I doubt anyone short of a billionaire could mount a constitutional challenge against that law.

 

[AZ Vince]

I have mixed feelings about this and will need to consider it further.
I lean towards no drone usage but at times I think I'd like to have one. It can be hard work finding game. For what it's worth I use my eyes and boot leather to find game and don't even put out game cameras. Although lots of folks do it, leaving game cameras up on public land is a violation of the law from what I understand, I don't. As technology advances tactics and accepted practices change. I wonder what the old timers thought the first time a scope came out on a rifle?

Vince

 

[robby denning]

I wonder what the old timers thought the first time a scope came out on a rifle?

Vince

The same issues were raised. I remember as a kid Paul Harvey (the radio commentator of the day) spending a show talking about how unfair "telescopic sights" were.
Our game laws now reflect the acceptance of that technology- they are more restrictive than then. Things are changing way faster now. Will the laws be able to keep up?

 

[Shrek]

Just expand the laws about hunting and flying on the same day and I have no problem. Most states ban hunting an area that you have flown over in the same day and thats good enough for me. $99 drones would mean that not just weathly people could areial scout an area. If the government can use them then citizens should be able also. Personally I feel the government should have to have a search warrant to use one and specify the why and what they want to look at and be limited to turning on any camera or other surveillance device only when surveilling the target named in the warrant. At no time should the government have a drone flying over America without a warrant for a specific target. But thats just me and my quixotic desire for limited government.

 

[beachbunny]

is there a difference then in scouting from an airplane to get the lay of the land?
any body on this forum not using google earth to scout? go ahead and throw the first stone
but I sure wouldn't use a drone to actively hunt some poor animal

 

[Bonedalien]

I'm opposed to drones too for hunting and scouting. Much of our game gets stressed enough in the off season, they don't need some knucklehead chasing them around the mountain side with a toy helicopter.

completely agree

 

[muleman]

Unless someone has federal government amounts of dollars today. Today's "drones" are basically remote controlled hobby type devices with on device storage for the pictures/video or very limited uplink capabilities requiring the receiver to be close. The Audio Visual capabilities are similar to what a GoPro can do. These hobby devices of today have a very limited range and would require someone to have boots on the ground in close proximity to the device to control it and receive the uplink if so equipped. There are a few exceptions that can utilize the licensed Amateur Radio frequencies which could extend the ranges of today but overall today someone would have to be close to the area being surveyed.

I don't feel threatened by today's hobby devices as it requires the operator to be present to control the device or receive the AV. You bet I'd be upset to have someone fly over an area I was actively scouting. I would relate it to running into someone else placing trails cams. What does concern me is the full capability $99.99 drone that has been spoken of previously. When this type of reliable device become available to the masses then I think we will have big issues.

Moore's Law http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moore's_law is a fairly accurate observation. Just think about the advancements in digital photography in the last 10 years. Sooner or later this will become a real issue. I believe the root of the problem lies in ethics and up bringing. For a kid brought up only playing video games; a full featured drone is a natural extension of his upbringing and conditioning. I doubt any of these hypothetical kids would think twice about launching the mini Helfire IX from their drone to take down a 350" elk or a 30" wide muley. Contrast this with kids who are brought up in the outdoors and learn to love and appreciate it from a mentor. I know for my kids I limit the virtual world and they readily enjoy being outside in the real world. I am hopeful that my kids will have the same appreciation for nature that I have and was passed on to me from parents and grandparents. I believe it is up to us to police ourselves and as a group set the boundaries of what is acceptable. Of course when there are group decisions there are always concessions and not everyone is happy. Hopefully discussions like this among responsible game stewards will prevent future issues.


Last year there was a thread about using personal aircraft for elk scouting. I had looked into Utah's laws and Utah is very restrictive about aircraft during hunting season. I suppose someone could do preseason scouting via drone but as I read it you could not use a drone in Utah during your hunt.


Utah R657-5-14. Use of Vehicle or Aircraft.

(1)(a) A person may not use an airplane or any other airborne vehicle or device, or any motorized terrestrial or aquatic vehicle, including snowmobiles and other recreational vehicles, except a vessel as provided in Subsection (c), to take protected wildlife.
(b) A person may not take protected wildlife being chased, harmed, harassed, rallied, herded, flushed, pursued or moved by an aircraft or any other vehicle or conveyance listed in Subsection (a).
(c) Big game may be taken from a vessel provided:
(i) the motor of a motorboat has been completely shut off;
(ii) the sails of a sailboat have been furled; and
(iii) the vessel's progress caused by the motor or sail has ceased.
(2)(a) A person may not use any type of aircraft from 48 hours before any big game hunt begins through 48 hours after any big game hunting season ends to:
(i) transport a hunter or hunting equipment into a hunting area;
(ii) transport a big game carcass; or
(iii) locate, or attempt to observe or locate any protected wildlife.
(b) Flying slowly at low altitudes, hovering, circling or repeatedly flying over a forest, marsh, field, woodland or rangeland where protected wildlife is likely to be found may be used as evidence of violations of Subsections (1) and (2).
(3) The provisions of this section do not apply to the operation of an aircraft in a usual manner, or landings and departures from improved airstrips, where there is no attempt or intent to locate protected wildlife.

 

[Bonedalien]

thermal imaging cameras are getting cheaper. mount one on a drone and now you can see into dark timber. the possibilities are scary.
glad CO, just acted and put an end to them.

 

[brettb]

If you need the use of a drone to scout or hunt or whatever, maybe you should plan on hunting a high fence or hiring an outfitter to hold your hand. Sounds to me like people that want to use drones are more after the kill than the experience of the hunt its self. JMO. get off your ass and enjoy gods greatest creations on earth and learn how to be a real hunter without the overboard bulls&!t technology. Its called fare chase for a reason, and thats not meaning to fare for the hunter.

 

[realunlucky]

Its the hand holders are the ones that will continue to push the boundaries.

 

[littlebuf]

All you self proclaimed libertarians are sure quick to jump on the bandwagon of government squashing out a person's right.

Again, I'm not saying they should be legal during hunting season, but what's the harm in learning the lay of the land in June/July with a drone, if you have stupid amounts of money/free time in order to pull this off in the first place? What right is it of the game and fish to tell us NOT to fly our personal model planes around?


Just playing devil's advocate... it just seems all to frequent we are all anti-government and pro-rights until it's something that goes against what we would personally do, then it's okay for government intervention inhibiting our rights. I'd never partake in the activity, but would stand up for my fellow brethren for their right to fly RC airplanes with cameras strapped to them for fun during the summer if they so please. With 3-D mapping, topos, and aerials already readily available online and trail cams legal in most states to run during the off season to track game movement/inventory the herd.... I don't see much of the advantage to drones especially given their extremely high cost.

not sure how your correlating a libertarian view point with fair chase ethics. that is after all what pretense the thread was started on. i am a huge proportionate of liberty and also of fair chase, being a libertarian doesn't mean you throw all common sense out the window. i believe very strongly in ones rights and free will not being imposed upon by the government but that doesn't mean im supportive of one putting say a spy cam in the girls bathroom at a elementary school because he believes its his right. drones are not only not fair chase but paramount to invading on all sorts of other rights to privacy and should be restricted, for private and government use

 

[TEmbry]

not sure how your correlating a libertarian view point with fair chase ethics. that is after all what pretense the thread was started on. i am a huge proportionate of liberty and also of fair chase, being a libertarian doesn't mean you throw all common sense out the window. i believe very strongly in ones rights and free will not being imposed upon by the government but that doesn't mean im supportive of one putting say a spy cam in the girls bathroom at a elementary school because he believes its his right. drones are not only not fair chase but paramount to invading on all sorts of other rights to privacy and should be restricted, for private and government use

Placing spycams in women's bathrooms violates other peoples rights. Flying a toy helicopter around the hillsides on public land doesn't... heck even bigger difference when talking private land use. In fact, telling a man he CAN'T fly around his toy helicopter is a violation of his rights.

I understand not wanting them used in the aide of hunting itself (outlawed similar to trail cams, walkie talkies, same day flying, etc in most states)...but months before season a guy can't fly a camera around to check out the hillsides? Seems absurd.

Like others pointed out, consumer models of drones are essentially go pros with short range meaning the guy has to be close. Not like someone sitting at home in Iowa can fly the hillsides of MT for months on end pinpointing monster bulls. The fear against these far exceeds their capabilities IMO.

 

[brettb]

ya but unffortunatly the government believes that they can do what they want. i think its coming down to the true loyal fare chase hunters in this decision and hopefully weed out out the fancy lazy asses that believe they deserve the upperhand because of money/years/time commited into researching there so called huntin opporunity. get off your lazy ass and hunt and be proud to call yourself a hunter and help support our right to hunt without the lazyness adding into the already bad judgement we are all already critised for. grow a pair and man up.

 

[Shrek]

I have a girlfriend who is training to fly drones for the Air Farce. I'm wondering if she can hook me up with a little preseason scouting . JK...maybe I'm all for banning active hunting with them but scouting preseason I'm not concerned about. Maybe a minimum altitude to keep from disturbing game would be a good idea . Is it better for the game to have a bunch of hunters hiking through all the time scouting or a drone fly overhead occasionally ? I don't know what the answers are but I'm very reluctant to support banning aerial scouting and thats all it is. People are flying manned aircraft all the time to scout now.

 

[realunlucky]

Like others pointed out, consumer models of drones are essentially go pros with short range meaning the guy has to be close. Not like someone sitting at home in Iowa can fly the hillsides of MT for months on end pinpointing monster bulls. The fear against these far exceeds their capabilities IMO.

every year old technology gets cheaper. If a someone can pay for a gaggle of guides to stake out a certain animal they can surely afford better technology than a 1950 foam airplane with a go pro bubble gum glued to the front.

 

[Rucker61]

Like I mentioned in an early thread on drones, I just want them to fly in to haul the meat out.

 

[jmez]

I wouldn't use one but I really don't care if others do.