Down Vs. Synthetic for Backpack Hunting

[Fins_N_Tines]

Its like politics and religion. The great debate of down vs synthetic. As the title states this is for backcountry applications where you do not have luxary to go back to a cabin or hotel to dry out.

I decided to start a new threat as @Formidilosus has some great insight on a different threat about running the Stone Glacier Treated Down jacket over the last two years.

I personally go back and forth on whether I should use down or synthetic for reasons such as you get wet late at night or early morning from sweat or rain and than throw on your puffy layer to trap body heat.

Below is the previous post:

Have used the Grumman jacket and pants the last two years. From minus 14 degrees upward, some heavy snowstorms and a couple of soaks.

Instead of saying things like “it’s an oven”, or “it’s like the surface of the sun”, etc. instead treat it like a sleeping bag. No real puff outfit is made to move in. They are static layers. The way I see it is to find out what is the temperature that allows absolute comfort (sitting on your couch watching TV comfort) with ZERO movement, while keeping feet, head, hands warm to avoid that variable.

Wearing a thin base layer (think Patagonia lvl 1), a lighter weight fleece (Patagonia R1), the puff jacket, and a wind blocker with no movement for several hours- The Grumman is around a 35 degree jacket/pants. This is across multiple people in varied weather. Very few were good down to 30 degrees, and a couple were good only to around 38-40 degrees. The majority had to start doing something to stay warm- slight shivering, rubbing arms, little movement, etc., below 35.

If you move at all it throws everything out of wack. With just a bit of very slow hiking, several were overheated in below zero temps. It’s why a comparison of warmth when movement whatsoever is involved is nearly useless without a detailed description of personal body heat and metabolism, temperature and activity, boots, socks, head gear, etc.

Whats your take on down vs synthetic for a backpack hunt? Meaning taking into account times you are wet from sweat or rain and need to throw on puffy to preserve heat. I know SG just did a re-warming drill with their down garments, but people like John Barklow of Sitka say using down in a backcountry situation isn't wise.

 

[Fins_N_Tines]

Whats your take on down vs synthetic for a backpack hunt? Meaning taking into account times you are wet from sweat or rain and need to throw on puffy to preserve heat. I know SG just did a re-warming drill with their down garments, but people like John Barklow of Sitka say using down in a backcountry situation isn't wise.

It wasn’t long ago that I agreed with him. The SG treated down works. I would still choose synthetic if I was hunting in SE Alaska, Coast of WA and OR, N. ID early seasons, etc., where I knew I would be wet constantly or where durability is a serious concern. However for later season hunts and most of the Rocky Mountain west, down (at least SG) has proven to work very well, drying relatively quickly even if it gets wet, while being warmer and lighter.

 

[idahohikker]

Down. Warmer and way more durable. It can handle water well if it has good coatings.

Check out Outdoor Gear Labs reviews on down jackets and the RAB Microlight.

 

[npro04]

I like down for the weight and packability. If I was going somewhere I knew it was going to be raining and wet 24/7 for the whole trip I’d look real hard at something synthetic. Otherwise I’ve been happy with my down.

 

[hcaudle]

I prefer synthetic. It’s idiot-proof, so no matter what kind of mistakes I make I know I’ll be fine. I’ll take the weight/packability penalty to not have to worry about it.

 

[MuleDeerMike]

Western WA guy here. I like down over synthetic. I have a Skre puffy with treated down and it's been great. Probably 5 times warmer than my Uncompahgre from FL that I no longer have. Synthetic down degrades extremely quickly so unless your planning on buying a brand new synthetic puffy every year it will be significantly less warm in just a couple of months, but John Barklow leaves that part out. Lol. That alone has completely driven me away from synthetic, they're just not cost effective enough for me. If I was going to Alaska anytime soon then I would buy a Kifaru LPP and just take the weight penalty. I see you're from Cali, and this is no way a knock at all, but how much experience do you have hunting in hard rain and being truly soaking wet? I think the amount of rain it takes to compromise a treated down jacket is wayyyy more than most guys think it is. Don't over think it though, if you were running out the door for a week to hunt in the backcountry and you had a down coat and a synthetic coat and had to choose only one real quick, you'd probably grab the synthetic for the piece of mind. Confidence is key and worrying about your coat while hunting is a distraction, just go with your gut

Side note: The first down puffy was made by Eddie Bauer after a fishing trip in the pouring down rainforest of the Olympic Peninsula in WA. His buddy found him soaking wet and unresponsive from hypothermia and saved him. After he got home, he started brainstorming ways to stay warm and then the Eddie Bauer brand was born. Again, Olympic Peninsula of Western WA.

 

[Fins_N_Tines]

Western WA guy here. I like down over synthetic. I have a Skre puffy with treated down and it's been great. Probably 5 times warmer than my Uncompahgre from FL that I no longer have. Synthetic down degrades extremely quickly so unless your planning on buying a brand new synthetic puffy every year it will be significantly less warm in just a couple of months, but John Barklow leaves that part out. Lol. That alone has completely driven me away from synthetic, they're just not cost effective enough for me. If I was going to Alaska anytime soon then I would buy a Kifaru LPP and just take the weight penalty. I see you're from Cali, and this is no way a knock at all, but how much experience do you have hunting in hard rain and being truly soaking wet? I think the amount of rain it takes to compromise a treated down jacket is wayyyy more than most guys think it is. Don't over think it though, if you were running out the door for a week to hunt in the backcountry and you had a down coat and a synthetic coat and had to choose only one real quick, you'd probably grab the synthetic for the piece of mind. Confidence is key and worrying about your coat while hunting is a distraction, just go with your gut

Side note: The first down puffy was made by Eddie Bauer after a fishing trip in the pouring down rainforest of the Olympic Peninsula in WA. His buddy found him soaking wet and unresponsive from hypothermia and saved him. After he got home, he started brainstorming ways to stay warm and then the Eddie Bauer brand was born. Again, Olympic Peninsula of Western WA.

I agree with you generally. This topic was to get perspective and her other view points. like I said, I go back and forth I currently am using the SG Grumman. Yes, i live in CA, but I am from MI where it will rain and snow all day long, so I am considering trying out some down in those environments since I go back to a cabin.

The real world testing I have not done is using treated down in a cold night or morning when your cold and wet from sweat or rain. There are guys on this Forum that have said down has gone flat on them in those situations. Thats my only real concern. Even in CA or other dry areas in the Rockies you can get yourself into those types of situations quit often in 7- 10 day hunt.

 

[Ghayes15]

I prefer down for size and weight

 

[fbhandler]

Do we have a good idea on how long the DWR/synthetic coating on down generally lasts ??

 

[Jimss]

I always use multi-layers without down. It's super nice having the flexibility of using several layers depending upon how active I am. If you use a "puffy" it's one super warm layer that has no flexibility other than to use when inactive and/or it's super cold?

I don't even own a "puffy". I am guessing many "puffies" are relatively noisy when hunting in brush....and not all that rugged for wear? If very active you'll be sweating like a horse.

My layers on top include base layer (camo) that can be warn alone. Mid-weight long sleeve shirt. I've had good luck with the thicker Cabelas micro-fleece mid-layer that is super quiet, dries extremely fast, and wears like iron. Next a jacket similar to Sitka 90 with hood, quiet cloth vest (Sitka Fanatic), and finally a rain jacket (Sitka Nimbus) for rain and to cut wind. All of those layers can be used alone or in combinations that cover a whole range of conditions. Obviously when it's warmer and/or dry out I don't need to pack all of them.

I'd much rather have a versatility of layers for multi-conditions than a puffy that's only use is when it's super cold or you are inactive. I am guessing my vest replaces the need for a long sleeved "puffy"? With that said I like the idea of going sleeveless with better ventilation with a vest. If you bow hunt it's also nice not having to worry about your string slapping "puffy" long sleeves. I'm not sure if you can find a down vest with quiet cloth material used as an outer? If it rains I merely put on a rain jacket so don't worry about down getting wet.

 

[rj2]

I always use multi-layers without down. It's super nice having the flexibility of using several layers depending upon how active I am. If you use a "puffy" it's one super warm layer that has no flexibility other than to use when inactive and/or it's super cold?

I don't even own a "puffy". I am guessing many "puffies" are relatively noisy when hunting in brush....and not all that rugged for wear? If very active you'll be sweating like a horse.

My layers on top include base layer (camo) that can be warn alone. Mid-weight long sleeve shirt. I've had good luck with the thicker Cabelas micro-fleece mid-layer that is super quiet, dries extremely fast, and wears like iron. Next a jacket similar to Sitka 90 with hood, quiet cloth vest (Sitka Fanatic), and finally a rain jacket (Sitka Nimbus) for rain and to cut wind. All of those layers can be used alone or in combinations that cover a whole range of conditions. Obviously when it's warmer and/or dry out I don't need to pack all of them.

I'd much rather have a versatility of layers for multi-conditions than a puffy that's only use is when it's super cold or you are inactive. I am guessing my vest replaces the need for a long sleeved "puffy"? With that said I like the idea of going sleeveless with better ventilation with a vest. If you bow hunt it's also nice not having to worry about your string slapping "puffy" long sleeves. I'm not sure if you can find a down vest with quiet cloth material used as an outer? If it rains I merely put on a rain jacket so don't worry about down getting wet.

I don't think a softshell + fanatic vest is every going to replace the insulating capabilities of a down jacket. It's the same reason we use a down sleeping bag and not a bunch of sheets and blankets. Warmth to weight ratio, down can't be beat so if you need actual warmth, you will be using down, or maybe like 2-3x as much weight using fleeces to end up being as warm as the down. The 90 jacket is over 16 ounces, a good high quality down jacket will be 10-12 ounces and way way warmer.

Sure if you don't need packability, and don't care about weight then of course we can use as many layers as we want to stay warm, but if either of those are a concern, down can't be beat.

 

[Bearsears]

Do we have a good idea on how long the DWR/synthetic coating on down generally lasts ??

Exactly! We don't have any real data that I'm aware of on how long the treatment on down will last. If its anything like any DWR piece Ive ever owned, not long. I definitely don't want to be on a back country hunt and find out my treated down is no longer repelling water. If I had to guess, the down treatment is going to fail about the same time a synthetic bag is going to degrade in warmth so its probably a moot point between the two. Its interesting that Western Mountaineering (the best down bag manufacturer in my opinion) specifically doesn't use treated down and doesn't want to. I also noticed in the rewarming drill SG posted that the instructor was commenting about how the down was only wet where it was getting compressed. Well that's a problem wearing a pack or laying on a sleeping bag.

I currently have two different down jackets the Kuiu Super Down with Quix Down and an older non treated 650 fill Cabelas jacket. Ive had both for years and I used to wear the Cabelas one daily in the winter. I love the warmth and feel of down but I honestly can say I don't think my two jackets are warmer than the FL Uncle Padre I bought last year. I think in my case the ability of the FL piece to move the moisture through the jacket and expel it quickly has translated to me being overall much warmer wearing it than my down. I thought the whole 37.5 tech was a gimmick but in my experience its not. After a long hike to a glassing spot I am dry in ten minutes and my down has never accomplished that. To me I am moving towards moisture management more than perceived warmth. If I'm dry I'm much warmer relativly.

I am in the middle of this whole debate internally right now as well as everyone here. I have a Big Agnes Blackburn 0 degree that I used last year on my rifle hunt. I love it. Its comfortable as hell, light, and warm. It has treated down but I found myself always worrying about tent condensation and it wetting out thus I packed a 6oz bivy to protect it and I'm considering getting liners for my Redcliff to help with condensation at 9oz each side. So am I really saving weight with a down bag? I'm seriously considering moving to a synthetic bag for moisture management and the idiot proof factor (at least for later season stuff) but I haven't decided yet.

I remember a quote from Aron Snyder that Im starting to agree with more and more as I progress in my backcountry experience. Paraphrasing "if I its in my pack its because I need it. I dont care what it weighs or what my pack weighs, I know I need it." This is a great thread and I'm really interested in everyone's opinions.

 

[Fins_N_Tines]

Exactly! We don't have any real data that I'm aware of on how long the treatment on down will last. If its anything like any DWR piece Ive ever owned, not long. I definitely don't want to be on a back country hunt and find out my treated down is no longer repelling water. If I had to guess, the down treatment is going to fail about the same time a synthetic bag is going to degrade in warmth so its probably a moot point between the two. Its interesting that Western Mountaineering (the best down bag manufacturer in my opinion) specifically doesn't use treated down and doesn't want to. I also noticed in the rewarming drill SG posted that the instructor was commenting about how the down was only wet where it was getting compressed. Well that's a problem wearing a pack or laying on a sleeping bag.

I currently have two different down jackets the Kuiu Super Down with Quix Down and an older non treated 650 fill Cabelas jacket. Ive had both for years and I used to wear the Cabelas one daily in the winter. I love the warmth and feel of down but I honestly can say I don't think my two jackets are warmer than the FL Uncle Padre I bought last year. I think in my case the ability of the FL piece to move the moisture through the jacket and expel it quickly has translated to me being overall much warmer wearing it than my down. I thought the whole 37.5 tech was a gimmick but in my experience its not. After a long hike to a glassing spot I am dry in ten minutes and my down has never accomplished that. To me I am moving towards moisture management more than perceived warmth. If I'm dry I'm much warmer relativly.

I am in the middle of this whole debate internally right now as well as everyone here. I have a Big Agnes Blackburn 0 degree that I used last year on my rifle hunt. I love it. Its comfortable as hell, light, and warm. It has treated down but I found myself always worrying about tent condensation and it wetting out thus I packed a 6oz bivy to protect it and I'm considering getting liners for my Redcliff to help with condensation at 9oz each side. So am I really saving weight with a down bag? I'm seriously considering moving to a synthetic bag for moisture management and the idiot proof factor (at least for later season stuff) but I haven't decided yet.

I remember a quote from Aron Snyder that Im starting to agree with more and more as I progress in my backcountry experience. Paraphrasing "if I its in my pack its because I need it. I dont care what it weighs or what my pack weighs, I know I need it." This is a great thread and I'm really interested in everyone's opinions.

Man this is spot on. This is exactly why I started this thread. I'm in same boat as you. I love down for the weight saving and compress-ability, but on a hunt having peace of mind you can stay warm in a bad situation is also nice.

Also, I agree with @fbhandler that we do not really know how long the DWR lasts. If it fails similarly to synthetic insulation degenerating over time; than I'm not sure its really better. Regardless, all good talking points.

 

[Poser]

Hunting in the SW, I use down for the weight and packability factor. If it’s raining here, it’s unlikely to be cold enough for heavy insulation layers anyway. Precautions for keeping down dry in wet snow etc are pretty simple. I have had some minor condensation issues before, but it can be dealt with. Overall, I can’t think of a down failure that I have experienced. In other parts of the country, I would reconsider, however.

 

[Formidilosus]

The real world testing I have not done is using treated down in a cold night or morning when your cold and wet from sweat or rain. There are guys on this Forum that have said down has gone flat on them in those situations. Thats my only real concern. Even in CA or other dry areas in the Rockies you can get yourself into those types of situations quit often in 7- 10 day hunt.

You need to separate down by brand. Treated down is not the same from make to make, just like rain gear is not the same from make to make.

Right now the only thing that has been demonstrated is that SG’s treated down products work even when wet. Repeatedly. That’s it. No one is saying that another companies treated down will work... Or at least I haven’t seen anyone state that.



1). SG treated down longevity: At least 10 washes personally, though most without detergent. I started using a brand new SG Grumman in October of 2019. In 6months (180 days +/-) it has approx. 120-130 days of wear. Almost of that wear has been field use- dirt, sweat, blood, mud, water. It still lofts identically as the brand new one, and I still use to cook my base layers dry from sweat. It can be used to cook clothing dry becoming noticeably wet, then stowed wet, and when pulled out later in less than 5 minutes it has lofted back up.

2). Synthetic longevity. In comparison one of the best synthetic jackets- Kifaru LPP lost about half of it’s loft in the first 90 days of wear. In February of this year, another one had visibly less loft than a brand new one. That’s less than 30 days of field use and it is already degraded. The ECWS/PCU system that is often brought up, is to us- a one season use item. It will be noticeably degraded with 60 days of use in and out of packs. If actually used, synthetics have a very short lifespan. Most people never notice because most don’t put their equipment to the limit, and most never compare it when they do, side by side with a brand new unused item.


Part of this problem is the information that is presented. I’ve wrote about this multiple times. People talk warmth, yet have no consistent basis for their beliefs or experiences. For instance, after nearly going hypothermic in a FL Uncompagre in 40-45 degree weather after being assured it was “an oven”, I started to try and figure out a way to cut through the BS. No one excepts a sleeping bag that is rated to 15 degrees, if they have to rub their arms, flex their feet, throw more clothes inside the bag, throw another bag over top, etc. A 15 degree bag should be comfortable at 15 degrees (yes I understand temp ratings, fuel, etc). Point being if you move at all, which nearly everyone does even when they claim “stationary”, all useful information is lost.

Long story short, in true stationary conditions when the temperature goes below 68’ish degrees between the mid layer and the puff jacket is when most adult males with relatively low body fat, will start doing extra things to warm up. Turns out if compared to a sleeping bag, that FL Uncompagre is really a 50+ degree bag. No, it’s not an “oven”.

In the past synthetic were the general use, mainstay cold weather insulator for me. Down was specialized use only. Funny thing is my first good down jacket (MH) is still solid after 14’ish years, but I have to replace synthetics after one hunting season, max two. Now, down products are the general use, and synthetics are for specific use only.


I’m not sure why people are so reluctant to actually use their equipment. If you want to know what it does, try it. Within two days of receiving the first Grumman I was on a ridge in sub twenty degrees, soaked completely to the point that you could squeeze water out of the Sitka Kelvin Active I used as a mid layer, and using the Grumman to dry out. I had a synthetic and another down jacket because odds were it would fail. But it worked very well. Like scopes/rifles/packs/trucks/etc. just use it. I can’t really see the point of buying a $300 jacket and then being reluctant to see what it can do.

 

[Formidilosus]

All of this is supposing actual cold weather use. I.E., November and later rifle seasons in the Rocky Mountain West. Conditions like the picture I posted. If you’re using it for September and mid to early October archery hunts where it’s not going below 32 degrees much, and the chance of rain is high and you want to bust brush (not sue why anyone would do it in a puffy, but...), then I would probably choose a synthetic and just replace it every couple of years. Get one that’s warmer than you require and even when it loses loft, it’s still enough. That’s expensive, but then you don’t have to worry about it.

 

[idahohikker]

Outdoor gear lab does some fairly rigorous testing. Another data point in addition to videos of people jumping in cold water.

 

[Bearsears]

You need to separate down by brand. Treated down is not the same from make to make, just like rain gear is not the same from make to make.

Right now the only thing that has been demonstrated is that SG’s treated down products work even when wet. Repeatedly. That’s it. No one is saying that another companies treated down will work... Or at least I haven’t seen anyone state that.



1). SG treated down longevity: At least 10 washes personally, though most without detergent. I started using a brand new SG Grumman in October of 2019. In 6months (180 days +/-) it has approx. 120-130 days of wear. Almost of that wear has been field use- dirt, sweat, blood, mud, water. It still lofts identically as the brand new one, and I still use to cook my base layers dry from sweat. It can be used to cook clothing dry becoming noticeably wet, then stowed wet, and when pulled out later in less than 5 minutes it has lofted back up.

2). Synthetic longevity. In comparison one of the best synthetic jackets- Kifaru LPP lost about half of it’s loft in the first 90 days of wear. In February of this year, another one had visibly less loft than a brand new one. That’s less than 30 days of field use and it is already degraded. The ECWS/PCU system that is often brought up, is to us- a one season use item. It will be noticeably degraded with 60 days of use in and out of packs. If actually used, synthetics have a very short lifespan. Most people never notice because most don’t put their equipment to the limit, and most never compare it when they do, side by side with a brand new unused item.


Part of this problem is the information that is presented. I’ve wrote about this multiple times. People talk warmth, yet have no consistent basis for their beliefs or experiences. For instance, after nearly going hypothermic in a FL Uncompagre in 40-45 degree weather after being assured it was “an oven”, I started to try and figure out a way to cut through the BS. No one excepts a sleeping bag that is rated to 15 degrees, if they have to rub their arms, flex their feet, throw more clothes inside the bag, throw another bag over top, etc. A 15 degree bag should be comfortable at 15 degrees (yes I understand temp ratings, fuel, etc). Point being if you move at all, which nearly everyone does even when they claim “stationary”, all useful information is lost.

Long story short, in true stationary conditions when the temperature goes below 68’ish degrees between the mid layer and the puff jacket is when most adult males with relatively low body fat, will start doing extra things to warm up. Turns out if compared to a sleeping bag, that FL Uncompagre is really a 50+ degree bag. No, it’s not an “oven”.

In the past synthetic were the general use, mainstay cold weather insulator for me. Down was specialized use only. Funny thing is my first good down jacket (MH) is still solid after 14’ish years, but I have to replace synthetics after one hunting season, max two. Now, down products are the general use, and synthetics are for specific use only.


I’m not sure why people are so reluctant to actually use their equipment. If you want to know what it does, try it. Within two days of receiving the first Grumman I was on a ridge in sub twenty degrees, soaked completely to the point that you could squeeze water out of the Sitka Kelvin Active I used as a mid layer, and using the Grumman to dry out. I had a synthetic and another down jacket because odds were it would fail. But it worked very well. Like scopes/rifles/packs/trucks/etc. just use it. I can’t really see the point of buying a $300 jacket and then being reluctant to see what it can do.

All great points. That SG jacket sounds pretty awesome. Im surprised you almost went hypothermic in the Uncompahgre. That definitly hasnt been my experience but I wouldnt call it a furnace either. All of this is pretty subjective to the users body type, metabolism, etc. I think.

 

[Formidilosus]

Outdoor gear lab does some fairly rigorous testing. Another data point in addition to videos of people jumping in cold water.

No doubt it’s better than most, but that word “testing” is a stretch. It means something, and very few places or people actually “test” anything. At best they evaluate, but very few are doing much worthwhile at that. Even so, they don’t answer the use question. They’re specification articles, with a whole lot of “like” thrown in. 20% of the “score” is style.


As an example-

I’m looking for an insulatimg layer for late November high elevation elk and mule deer hunting. Conditions will be from -5 to 25 degrees. Use will be primarily stationary as I’ll be glassing for several hours morning and afternoon, however I will be hiking up ridges each morning and will be somewhat wet from sweat, so I want to be able to use the jacket to help dry out, as well it needs to remain functional with a bit of moisture. Bulk is a concern so I do not want layer after layer.


Tell me how this-

The 12 Best Winter Jackets of 2024

Finding a great winter jacket doesn't have to be a chore. With seemingly endless options, we've taken the guesswork out of staying warm this winter. We've...

www.outdoorgearlab.com

Is going to inform me which jacket will work in those temps and conditions, while keeping me completely comfortable?

 

[idahohikker]

No doubt it’s better than most. But doesn’t answer the use question. They’re specification articles, with a whole lot of “like” thrown in. 20% of the “score” is style.


As an example-

I’m looking for an insulatimg layer for late November high elevation elk and mule deer hunting. Condition will be from -5 to 25 degrees. Use will be primarily stationary as I’ll be glassing for several hours morning and afternoon, however I will be hiking up ridges each morning and will be somewhat wet from sweat, so I want to be able to use the jacket to help dry out, as well it needs to remain functional with a bit of moisture.

Tell me how this-

The 12 Best Winter Jackets of 2024

Finding a great winter jacket doesn't have to be a chore. With seemingly endless options, we've taken the guesswork out of staying warm this winter. We've...

www.outdoorgearlab.com

Is going to inform me which jacket will work in those temps and conditions, while keeping me completely comfortable?

Respectfully disagree. I’ll let the OP determine if their rankings and description is helpful. They are intense climbers and mountaineers.