Does the 223/6mm for everything change when hunt cost $$$

[Yukon Cornelius]

Go back and read my post you first quoted, I was targeting black bear and that is clearly stated.

It is officially a intermediate density population. However, that is beside the point as I never used the word common.

Sorry, I did not think anyone who hunts in Alaska could be uninformed of the difference between coastal and interior brown bears and their distribution; which lead me to interpret the question as being passive aggressive. Even so, I tried to avoid bickering of terminology in my first reply, so it really does come across as you are arguing; especially when combined with the two straw man arguments of targeting and common made above.

having hunted western, south western, and interior units my knowledge of coopers landing near hunting isn’t as intensive as yours.

The five years I lived in south central I never saw a brownie except on camera. So when I think of someone targeting a coastal brownie, I think of better units in the state.

So asking if you are targeting coastal browning in coopers landing is a simple I’m curious. Seems like there are much better places to target a coastal than coopers landing.

Kind of like targeting moose in unit 13. Are they there? And some big ones? Dang straight but are there better units? Dang straight. But everyone may not have to luxury of living in prime hunting areas.

I’m glad you gave such detailed information. It definitely shows that you care about educating others to the potential of hunting unit 7.

 

[Yukon Cornelius]

I get what your saying. I know people call brownies grizzlies and vice versa.

It’s like when I hunted in unit 13. I would target caribou but wanted a moose.

I finally said f it! I’m moving back to the interior where I can target moose.


And as far as what I consider a coastal…one that is big and lives on the coast. Lol
Very scientific. Very specific.

 

[Marbles]

@Yukon Cornelius any further argument should be moved to this thread

having hunted western, south western, and interior units my knowledge of coopers landing near hunting isn’t as intensive as yours.

The five years I lived in south central I never saw a brownie except on camera. So when I think of someone targeting a coastal brownie, I think of better units in the state.

So asking if you are targeting coastal browning in coopers landing is a simple I’m curious. Seems like there are much better places to target a coastal than coopers landing.

Kind of like targeting moose in unit 13. Are they there? And some big ones? Dang straight but are there better units? Dang straight. But everyone may not have to luxury of living in prime hunting areas.

I’m glad you gave such detailed information. It definitely shows that you care about educating others to the potential of hunting unit 7.

I agree, I would not plan a brown bear hunt here, nor a moose hunt, if I was not local. It feels like the only plentiful animal is black bear (there are more moose, but I doubt there are more legal moose). So I hunt black bear, and try to find a brown bear or a legal moose and put in for drawing tags. I think most bears are killed over bait, but due to limited time, I choose to spot and stalk in the alpine as it doubles as physical training. Or at least that is my excuse for my abysmal harvest record.

Brown bear just closed by emergency order today on the peninsula for the rest of the calendar year, so no more hoping to cross paths with one for me until 2025.

 

[Yukon Cornelius]

@Yukon Cornelius any further argument should be moved to this thread

I agree, I would not plan a brown bear hunt here, nor a moose hunt, if I was not local. It feels like the only plentiful animal is black bear (there are more moose, but I doubt there are more legal moose). So I hunt black bear, and try to find a brown bear or a legal moose and put in for drawing tags. I think most bears are killed over bait, but due to limited time, I choose to spot and stalk in the alpine as it doubles as physical training. Or at least that is my excuse for my abysmal harvest record.

Brown bear just closed by emergency order today on the peninsula for the rest of the calendar year, so no more hoping to cross paths with one for me until 2025.

I think your targeting brownies is similar to my targeting moose in 13.

It is nice though hunting here. I knew that blackies we’re very common in the area.

Same where I live now. Blacks are plentiful and griz are there but not harvested much.

 

[Macintosh]

Do other cartridges have advantages within the terminal range of the 223/tmk?

Depends on which criteria someone chooses to prioritize (or ignore). Also depends on whether someone considers “more dead” an advantage over just merely “dead”. Also depends on how objective someone is being—after all, despite what people say, I think very few people make these decisions based on any first-hand evidence or functionality, most of the time I have seen it there is a huge dose of “just doing what the outfitter says” and reading all manner of media and industry stuff—Ive never been on an expensive hunt like this, but have seen a few friends and acquaintances prep and go, and so far there has been very little in the way of objective, data-driven decision making. These pretty hardcore, well travelled and seasoned hunters go out and buy a .300studwhomper because the internet says it might provide a small advantage in a small subset of circumstances at 700 yards, and by golly they arent going to skimp on this trip so they buy a new rifle…despite the fact they have killed dozens of similar sized animals, at the range at which they are competent shooting, and whatever smaller gun they already have worked fine…its the well-heeled hunter gentleman equivalent of my wife buying a new bathing suit because we’re going on vacation, despite have 6 other bathing suits that are identical save for color. Not that Im complaining about that.
I think there is this legit phenomenon where going on a $$$$$ “exotic” (at least supposedly) trip actually CAUSES people to feel they need something different or even subscribe to the “bigger must be better” mentality. Fishing trip to xxx…definitely need a new rod for that. Hunting trip to yyyy…gotta have the perfect gun. Im the first person to say that a quiver of rod or shotguns or rifles is a benerfit, but I do believe when talking about an expensive or dream trip its an emotional part of the trip every bit as much as it is a legit new functional need.

 

[RockAndSage]

I think there is this legit phenomenon where going on a $$$$$ “exotic” (at least supposedly) trip actually CAUSES people to subscribe to the “bigger must be better” mentality.

I think you're definitely onto something here, and it's related to a thought I've had about how people might be doing something similar in hunting trophy-sized bucks or big bull elk. They'll shoot .223 or .22-250 at antelope or whitetails no problem, but the idea of shooting a big monster muley with a .223 seems inappropriate to them...almost like a buck that big needs to be shot with something bigger and more 'respectable'. As though it's disrespectful and inappropriate for an animal like that, or that it somehow lessens them or the hunt. I've picked up on this in talking with people, and I'm dead certain they're not fully cognizant of how they're feeling about it, just that it's 'wrong' for a trophy, but not a cull hunt or something they can hunt easily and at any time.

 

[Macintosh]

I’m putting myself in the elks shoes, as a stud bull elk I can’t decide if I would be more mortified if I was shot by a flat-brimmer toting a carbon barrel, or some washed up grampa lugging around a gussied up magnum. Frankly, if I was going to get shot, I think I would really prefer to have it done by some dirtbag mechanic wearing blue jeans and toting around a rusty rifle that he bought used in 1993. I think if I ever go on a really expensive trip, I should just pick the rifle based on what I think the critter would prefer. I’m pretty sure that would be an all-original pre-64 Winchester in 270 Winchester, with either iron sights or maybe an old Weaver scope.

 

[RockAndSage]

I’m putting myself in the elks shoes, as a stud bull elk I can’t decide if I would be more mortified if I was shot by a flat-brimmer toting a 223 or six creed, or some washed up grampa lugging around a 338. Frankly, if I was going to get shot, I think I would really prefer to have it done by some dirtbag mechanic wearing blue jeans and toting around a rusty 3006 that he bought used in 1993.

Funny...putting myself in the elk's shoes is actually one of the best arguments in favor of hunting with .223 or 6CM (flat brim or no): If I had to get shot at, I'd want to get shot at by the guy with the gun most likely to miss.

 

[Macintosh]

Caught me re-writing!

 

[5811]

I’m putting myself in the elks shoes, as a stud bull elk I can’t decide if I would be more mortified if I was shot by a flat-brimmer toting a carbon barrel, or some washed up grampa lugging around a gussied up magnum. Frankly, if I was going to get shot, I think I would really prefer to have it done by some dirtbag mechanic wearing blue jeans and toting around a rusty rifle that he bought used in 1993. I think if I ever go on a really expensive trip, I should just pick the rifle based on what I think the critter would prefer. I’m pretty sure that would be an all-original pre-64 Winchester in 270 Winchester, with either iron sights or maybe an old Weaver scope.

What about a dirtbag mechanic with jeans and a 223? Asking for a friend......

 

[Macintosh]

See, its the whole package you have to consider as a stud bull elk…

 

[plebe]

Depends on which criteria someone chooses to prioritize (or ignore). Also depends on whether someone considers “more dead” an advantage over just merely “dead”. Also depends on how objective someone is being—after all, despite what people say, I think very few people make these decisions based on any first-hand evidence or functionality, most of the time I have seen it there is a huge dose of “just doing what the outfitter says” and reading all manner of media and industry stuff—Ive never been on an expensive hunt like this, but have seen a few friends and acquaintances prep and go, and so far there has been very little in the way of objective, data-driven decision making. These pretty hardcore, well travelled and seasoned hunters go out and buy a .300studwhomper because the internet says it might provide a small advantage in a small subset of circumstances at 700 yards, and by golly they arent going to skimp on this trip so they buy a new rifle…despite the fact they have killed dozens of similar sized animals, at the range at which they are competent shooting, and whatever smaller gun they already have worked fine…its the well-heeled hunter gentleman equivalent of my wife buying a new bathing suit because we’re going on vacation, despite have 6 other bathing suits that are identical save for color. Not that Im complaining about that.
I think there is this legit phenomenon where going on a $$$$$ “exotic” (at least supposedly) trip actually CAUSES people to feel they need something different or even subscribe to the “bigger must be better” mentality. Fishing trip to xxx…definitely need a new rod for that. Hunting trip to yyyy…gotta have the perfect gun. Im the first person to say that a quiver of rod or shotguns or rifles is a benerfit, but I do believe when talking about an expensive or dream trip its an emotional part of the trip every bit as much as it is a legit new functional need.

Just the facts and folks can choose for themselves sounds good.

 

[Big_wals]

This is a great thread, reminds me of why I switched from 30-06 to .243 before I had even found Rokslide. I had noticed a phenomenon where a gun writer would write several articles about elk hunting or muley hunting, you need a minimum of 30-06 to 300 win mag, maybe a 7 rem mag, yada yada all the normal “bring enough gun” talk. Then, the same writer would have an article about setting up a rifle for a kid, or a woman, and suddenly a 6.5 creed or even .243 “with proper shot placement” was fine for killing the same animals that a big dude needed a 30 cal magnum for. I figured if women and children could kill with a .243, I probably could too

 

[Southern Lights]

Ok went out again for another fallow deer cull. Used my Blaser R8 in 223. I have not been able to get together a heavier load to try, but did decide to try the V-Max 60gr as construction is similar to ELDM, but in a flat base. Basically, I want a fragmenting bullet like I use in my other rifles.

For review, last time I went out with Speer 55gr bonded bullets. I was only expecting to come across Fallow and do normal head/neck shots, but I in fact ran across fallow and a 2-3 year old red stag. For US readers, a red deer is sized between a whitetail and elk. They are not quite elk, but can be large with mature red stags being over 350-500+lbs.

As it were, all I had were these bonded bullets and I wanted the antlers so did not go for a head shot. I instead moved in from around 400y to 200y before throwing down the pack to get off a quick shot before it jumped the property line. The animal took four shots. First two were good. Third was marginal. Fourth was good. Animal finally went down. All of this happened inside about 40 seconds according to shot video.

So tonight same location, but this time with V-Max with goal to do chest shots only to see impact. Three does emerged at about 313y. I shot the largest with solid chest hit. Doe meandered for about 5-10 seconds, then laid down and expired. She did not run as it obviously affected her.

Overall result: Internal lungs were sliced, heart pulverized. Entry was mid-high shoulder angling down (slightly downhill shot). Entry wound was not visible until very close inspection. Broke rib on entry. No exit wound, but you can see inside cavity where remainder of bullet left mark. I didn't see any bullet fragments to speak of inside the organs. I'm assuming they were so small that they were just hard to see in the dark and it was getting cold so I didn't feel like digging through guts.

Observations:

Did the deer go down as fast as it would have if I had used my 270? Probably not based on experience. But the 270 is a heavier bullet going much faster causing more severe fragmentation damage with more material to splatter about internal.

If I used a heavier .223 would it have worked better? Probably. I was shooting 60gr and with my twist rate it's unlikely I can go above 70gr so I'll have to experiment. More material to fragment would always help along with better BC.

Did the V-Max penetrate enough to do the business? Yes. Almost exited. All I wanted was a few inches penetration and explode in chest cavity which it did exactly.

Did the V-Max make a big blood trail? No. There was in fact no external evidence of a wound at all. The bullet entered with a small hole and blew up internally. All bleeding was internal. The animal looked as if she was just sleeping next to the fence. It had no evidence of being shot by external examination alone. If you want a big blood trail, this bullet maybe is not for you. But if you make a good shot, you won't need a blood trail.

I have shot a good number of deer with the 223, along with my hunting mates. A fragmenting .223 is certainly capable of killing a deer which is not surprising to me having seen it happen a lot. Would I use it as my primary on a hunt? Maybe depending on what it was. I need to try a heavier bullet and shoot some more animals. But I certainly think the 223 is fine for shooting deer and have known this for years.

I will make up a heavier load and shoot some bigger animals to see how things go. I have a tahr hunt coming up, but will likely use my 270 as I know it's the non-fuss solution. But if I get a good heavy 223 load working I may take it and report back.

FYI: In NZ there is no deer hunting season and we can shoot deer all year round (they are considered an invasive pest here). I am hunting with a thermal/IR dual channel scope here which is legal on private land hunting only. I am here with landowner permission to control deer populations causing lots of damage.

Photos:

Nearby venison farm. Deer can escape the high wire and go wild again. I am not shooting on a deer farm, but a very large sheep block.

Blaser R8 with Pard TD-32 dual channel thermal/IR scope. Has built in range finder and ballistics computer. Thermal helps find heat sources, IR helps to positively identify I'm not about to shoot livestock.

Blaser 18" barrel with ASE Utra SL5 suppressor.

Pard View: Has day/night camera and thermal. You can run either in picture in picture mode with reticles aligned so you get thermal heat and IR confirmation in same view.

Fallow deer doe. Estimated weight about 150lbs. They are small bodied deer in general and the best venison I've ever had.

 

[Southern Lights]

Following up on the above. I was able to look at the backstraps and tenderloins in the daylight. The tenderloins I will need to throw out as they look damaged/bloodshot. The front half of the backstraps I may do the same to be safe. The bullet fragmentation I suspect has contaminated much of the meat in the front half of the animal. I'll save the back quarters.

This gets to a point I forgot to mention above. I don't deny a fragmenting large for calibre bullet would work well. But this is actually opposite of where I'm going personally as I'm moving to all lead free.

So in the end, I'm not really looking for a hyper fragmenting bullet to spray lead all over the place. Something for others to consider that are going down this route.

 

[AKPH]

Hi
I am big fan of the 556/223.
I use them a lot. It would kill anything walking around in north america between the hands of a skilled hunter.
it is a fact.

now you need to put everything in perspective. Its not the one you want for bear !
its not the one you want for moose or any tough game you maybe won't be able to shoot broadside in the lungs with a perfect angle or in any timber type of hunt.

otherwise for any deer size type of animal up to 500 yards with TMKs I dont see any problem.
just my experience.

 

[omicron1792]

Hi
I am big fan of the 556/223.
I use them a lot. It would kill anything walking around in north america between the hands of a skilled hunter.
it is a fact.

now you need to put everything in perspective. Its not the one you want for bear !
its not the one you want for moose or any tough game you maybe won't be able to shoot broadside in the lungs with a perfect angle or in any timber type of hunt.

otherwise for any deer size type of animal up to 500 yards with TMKs I dont see any problem.
just my experience.

Have you shot a moose or bear with a 77gr tmk? If so I would love to hear about the experience!

 

[KHntr]

Hi
I am big fan of the 556/223.
I use them a lot. It would kill anything walking around in north america between the hands of a skilled hunter.
it is a fact.

now you need to put everything in perspective. Its not the one you want for bear !
its not the one you want for moose or any tough game you maybe won't be able to shoot broadside in the lungs with a perfect angle or in any timber type of hunt.

otherwise for any deer size type of animal up to 500 yards with TMKs I dont see any problem.
just my experience.

I better go put something heavy on top of my freezers….

Little bull square broadside. Both shoulders crushed.
Big Bull quartering in, onside shoulder crushed and lungs pulped.

 

[eric1115]

I better go put something heavy on top of my freezers….

It's the best way to keep the meat fresh. Don't kill it all the way!

 

[KHntr]

Seemed to work here too.

Fair to middlin’ brown phase black bear off the neighbors oat field. Both shoulders crushed.