Does the 223/6mm for everything change when hunt cost $$$

[Wrench]

If you need to ask the internet what gun to use.....you should probably get off the internet and go kill some shit. Experience is what brings confidence. Confidence is important.

 

[Shō[t]gun]

If you need to ask the internet what gun to use...

1955 mod. 70, .270, vx5 leupold is the answer.

#RoalSlide

 

[Formidilosus]

Copy that, I can only share my experience, which is that I shoot the Kraft drill with my 9.25lb 284 as well as my 9.25lb 6CM and 8.5lb 22lr, all Tikkas with identical ergos. I typically score 13-17/20, just depending on the day/rep.

“13-17/20” on what?

So when it comes to prone, I shoot essentially minimum group size with all rifles, and I can spot impacts.

I do as well, generally. However I do not see that with other shooters- or very, very few.


But, I also am speaking to all shooting/all positions/all situations, not just a perfect prone shot.

Now it happens that the 6CM has the same wind number as the 284 (7mph), so the difference at 600 is really pretty minimal. Maybe a 22CM can get to 5-6mph, in which case yes I agree it's not a bad choice and may result in similar hit rates (haven't tried it). But a 223 is a ~4mph gun, and that is a nearly 100% difference to a 284/6.5PRC (7-8mph guns and similar recoil).

Ok, so let’s get specific so we are talking about the same thing, and it’s not hypothetical.

How many game animals have you killed or shot at, at 600 yards? How many of those were in broken terrain and with winds speeds above 7mph?

So in my view of the universe, if I'm taking a prone shot at 4-600yds, I'm taking the 284/6.5PRC all day over the .223.

I don’t make decisions based on specializing for one specific scenario (perfectly prone, no stress, no time pressure, and high winds in broken terrain), versus looking at all hunting shots across time and space and maximizing for the overall highest success rate.

 

[Macintosh]

Yes, and in situations where you are shooting huge volume I agree that less recoil is much better. But hunting is not a huge volume scenario. Practicing can be bigger volume, but even 40rds in a day at range and running the Kraft drill is a good amount of practice. Do that once a month, and we're up to maybe 500rds a year on the hunting rig (a very high estimate really). The best thing is to supplement with a trainer gun, like a 22lr or 223, to get even more practice. But when it comes to hunting, I'm not convinced I need to follow the same design principles as a PRS rig.

I don’t have nearly the experience that some do, and it sounds like you may be more experienced, but speaking only for myself I can definitively say that when I build and break positions between shots my groups are bigger with a heavier recoiling gun, than they are with a lighter recoiling gun. That is, not shooting “x shot groups”, but practicing building a position and shooting one shot, and repeating that to get a sense of my cold-shooter/cold-bore accuracy and precision from that position. I’m no pro, but I also do practice considerably more than the average shooter. This is true even from prone for me, although the difference there is much less than it is from other field positions. Hats off to anyone that can do this and keep up with their own performance compared with smaller cartridges, I’ve just never seen anyone able to be as consistent with a bigger gun as they can be with a smaller one. if most of my shots were prone maybe it wouldn’t matter as much, but I think probably less than 15% of the hunting shots I’ve taken over the last decade have been prone.

 

[prm]

Here’s my reality. I do not have first hand hunting experience with a .223 and thus don’t have the confidence, or lack of, that comes from actual experience. I do have a little experience with 6.5s, .30s, and .338s. My experience is that there is a difference in animal reaction from being hit from the largest to the smallest bullet within that range. The ultimate outcome does not seem to be different. A fast moving .338 bullet kills stuff real quick. My choice for this hunt would be the one I felt I could shoot the best, in the expected conditions, at the ranges I am likely to need to shoot. This sounds like a shot where dealing with wind and longer ranges could be likely so I’d take a 6.5. To me a 6.5CM has negligible recoil so not much benefit for going lighter. If close range shots in thick cover and difficult tracking conditions, 338 all the way.

 

[solarshooter]

“13-17/20” on what?




I do as well, generally. However I do not see that with other shooters- or very, very few.


But, I also am speaking to all shooting/all positions/all situations, not just a perfect prone shot.






Ok, so let’s get specific so we are talking about the same thing, and it’s not hypothetical.

How many game animals have you killed or shot at, at 600 yards? How many of those were in broken terrain and with winds speeds above 7mph?





I don’t make decisions based on specializing for one specific scenario (perfectly prone, no stress, no time pressure, and high winds in broken terrain), versus looking at all hunting shots across time and space and maximizing for the overall highest success rate.

13-17/20 on your version of the Kraft drill, with three circuits through 4 positions.

My point with prone was that for any long shot where windage matters, if you take it from prone, the recoil effect is much less. Yes at shorter ranges you might have an edge with a lighter recoiling cartridge despite worse windage. But if you can still score similarly with the higher recoil from mixed positions, and you gain a significant advantage at longer range (provided you shoot prone) it seems like it's a better overall solution (higher hit rates overall).

I've taken one shot beyond 600, 644yds cross canyon on a bedded mule deer. I aimed at the armpit and the bullet went between his ears and antlers (clean miss). It was about a 12" miss from poa, or about 0.5mil. I attribute it either to an updraft that I did not account for (it was dead calm at my location) or poor recoil control (or the other reasons you listed). I think wind is the more likely explanation, since it would only take ~5mph to produce that much deflection at 644yds, and I spent about 10 mins breathing and dryfiring before shooting, the position was solid and comfortable, and the shot execution felt right. Oh, and the gun zero was confirmed before and after and the load was previously trued to 700yds. There was no chance for a followup, the deer immediately sprang up and ran into some trees.

Would a lighter recoiling cartridge have helped me make this hit? Maybe so, depending on the cause of the miss. That being said, having done a lot more work to quantify my expected hit rates at range, I should not find this miss surprising, since an impact 6-12" off target is about 50% likely at that range.

 

[IDVortex]

If I can ever go on a mountain goat hunt, I'll take a 6CM and won't have doubts on it. Only elk I've killed has been with a 6.5cm, with a cx bullet and it killed that just fine. I wouldn't hesitate about a dream hunt, especially if it's a gun I'll end up shooting a lot. Heck, if I actually build a 6arc I'd even take that on a sheep hunt.

 

[HandgunHTR]

We may just agree to disagree on this.

The data supports that people generally use both emotion and logic in a decision-making process. I'll stand by that unless you can show me otherwise.

Can you provide some of that "data" that you mention?

The reason that I ask is that the majority of case studies and books that I have read about how people make decisions show that emotions and experience are the two main contributing factors to why people make the decisions that they do. Experience is the overwhelming driver. In the event that they lack personal experience, they will tend to base their decisions off of the experiences of people that they trust, however emotion can cloud that. In the case that they have no experience and they have nobody in their circle who has experience, they will often use emotion to create their "logic" to justify the decision they make, regardless of the facts.
The other thing about experience is that people will make decisions based completely statistically insignificant sample sizes (such as one or two time), also regardless of the fact that many others have completely different results. You see that quite a bit in these types of discussions. "I used to use bullet X and killed a pile of Y with them, but one time, at band camp, I shot a Z with them and it didn't die right there so I am never using that bullet again!!!"

A very good book to read regarding how people make decisions is Sidetracked by Francesca Gino

 

[fwafwow]

Fudd trap

 

[Shortschaf]

Fudd trap

you would be a fool not to take a 300 weatherby on this hunt

 

[justinspicher]

you would be a fool not to take a 300 weatherby on this hunt

Says you.

I like how this hypothetical scenario bashes dudes who answer honestly about their preferred cartridge, despite not knowing a single thing about the guy who is willing to take a 223 on a once in a lifetime hunt. Everyone who disagrees, does so because they wouldn’t do it, without any real experience with either the 223 or the hypothetical hunt.

 

[Wyo_hntr]

6 creed for me.

 

[Southern Lights]

I've taken one shot beyond 600, 644yds cross canyon on a bedded mule deer. I aimed at the armpit and the bullet went between his ears and antlers (clean miss). It was about a 12" miss from poa, or about 0.5mil. I attribute it either to an updraft that I did not account for (it was dead calm at my location) or poor recoil control (or the other reasons you listed). I think wind is the more likely explanation, since it would only take ~5mph to produce that much deflection at 644yds, and I spent about 10 mins breathing and dryfiring before shooting, the position was solid and comfortable, and the shot execution felt right. Oh, and the gun zero was confirmed before and after and the load was previously trued to 700yds. There was no chance for a followup, the deer immediately sprang up and ran into some trees.

Would a lighter recoiling cartridge have helped me make this hit? Maybe so, depending on the cause of the miss. That being said, having done a lot more work to quantify my expected hit rates at range, I should not find this miss surprising, since an impact 6-12" off target is about 50% likely at that range.

Maybe. But are you really going to take a 644 yard shot cross canyon in wind with a .223 and have any better luck of a hit?

One of my hunting partners shoots heaps of 223 on fallow deer. He reckons it's a 200-300m max round on deer for consistent quick kills outside of head/neck shots. I think the same. Past that range you run a good chance of them running far and getting lost in the bush even with a chest shot. I've had this happen myself.

 

[Formidilosus]

13-17/20 on your version of the Kraft drill, with three circuits through 4 positions.

Ah.

I can say that when practicing consistently I will average about-

18 to 19/20 with a 223 or equivalent

17 to 18/20 with a 6.5cm or equivalent

And it drops to 15/20 or so a 300mag.


No, if I training dedicated on the big guns and shooting a lot with them, I can shoot them to about 16-18 out of 20. But it takes a lot of work to do so, and it is very fragile- any time off at all, or any break in attention and there’s a miss. I shit it with the Browning 7 PRC a few weeks ago and did a 12/20. Now that had more than just the cartridge, but it is harder to score well.
The flip side of that is that I can go months with little practice with a 223 and only drop down to 16-17/20.

My point with prone was that for any long shot where windage matters, if you take it from prone, the recoil effect is much less. Yes at shorter ranges you might have an edge with a lighter recoiling cartridge despite worse windage. But if you can still score similarly with the higher recoil from mixed positions, and you gain a significant advantage at longer range (provided you shoot prone) it seems like it's a better overall solution (higher hit rates overall).

If you can score the same in varied positions and under stress, sure. But that hasn’t been what I’ve seen. In seeing a lot of animals killed, the highest success (shot at to recovered without bad shots/wounding) is by far with 223’s on all animals. We’re sitting at about nearly 200 animals per poor shot with good 223 setups. Contrast that, with a variety of people, including people that almost anyone would say are good shooters with magnums- were average between 1 and 3 poor shots per 10 animals.


I didn’t come into the 223 thing with an agenda, I started using it because of the data that we were seeing- way higher on demand killing with no rodeos.

I've taken one shot beyond 600, 644yds cross canyon on a bedded mule deer. I aimed at the armpit and the bullet went between his ears and antlers (clean miss). It was about a 12" miss from poa, or about 0.5mil. I attribute it either to an updraft that I did not account for (it was dead calm at my location) or poor recoil control (or the other reasons you listed). I think wind is the more likely explanation, since it would only take ~5mph to produce that much deflection at 644yds, and I spent about 10 mins breathing and dryfiring before shooting, the position was solid and comfortable, and the shot execution felt right. Oh, and the gun zero was confirmed before and after and the load was previously trued to 700yds. There was no chance for a followup, the deer immediately sprang up and ran into some trees.

I guess my thing here would be- why would you tailor the gun you are using to a situation that you do not find yourself in? You’ve taken one long shot, missed it- not with a 223(?), so why would you focus on that? There are tradeoffs to every cartridge, bullet, rifle setup, etc. I’ve kill animals past well beyond 1,000 yards, but I do not tailor my setup to those shots as they are statistically meaningless in the amount of shots on animals I take.


People should use equipment and setups- including rifles, cartridges, and scope for the shots that they actually take; not for what they hope to or “may” take.

Would a lighter recoiling cartridge have helped me make this hit? Maybe so, depending on the cause of the miss. That being said, having done a lot more work to quantify my expected hit rates at range, I should not find this miss surprising, since an impact 6-12" off target is about 50% likely at that range.

Thats all true. I can tell you that I killed an elk last year at over 1,100 yards with a “magnum”, with a first round hit at the back of the lungs. However, for that situation I would have rather had the 6XC that I generally use, even though it is objectively less capable in wind and retained velocity- it simply is more shootable and if you would have laid them both in front of me I would have chosen the smaller cartridge with no hesitation.

 

[Formidilosus]

Maybe. But are you really going to take a 644 yard shot cross canyon in wind with a .223 and have any better luck of a hit?

What bullet?

The real question is how many people should be trying a 644 yard shot under condition?

One of my hunting partners shoots heaps of 223 on fallow deer. He reckons it's a 200-300m max round on deer for consistent quick kills outside of head/neck shots. I think the same. Past that range you run a good chance of them running far and getting lost in the bush even with a chest shot. I've had this happen myself.

Hasn’t been our experience at all. We have killed more than 40 elk with 77gr TMK’s quite a few between 360m and 730 meters (400 and 803 yards), and they have all died without issue. The farthest one has ran was about 60 yards from a 190y shot.

 

[Shortschaf]

Says you.

I like how this hypothetical scenario bashes dudes who answer honestly about their preferred cartridge, despite not knowing a single thing about the guy who is willing to take a 223 on a once in a lifetime hunt. Everyone who disagrees, does so because they wouldn’t do it, without any real experience with either the 223 or the hypothetical hunt.

My fuddlike comment was total sarcasm, and apparently Rokslide-22mag-fanboy bait too!

In all seriousness, makes no sense to me why you would bring a 4.5mph gun (223) when there are perfectly easy to shoot 6mph guns out there (22creed and 6creed)

 

[plebe]

Can you provide some of that "data" that you mention?

The reason that I ask is that the majority of case studies and books that I have read about how people make decisions show that emotions and experience are the two main contributing factors to why people make the decisions that they do. Experience is the overwhelming driver. In the event that they lack personal experience, they will tend to base their decisions off of the experiences of people that they trust, however emotion can cloud that. In the case that they have no experience and they have nobody in their circle who has experience, they will often use emotion to create their "logic" to justify the decision they make, regardless of the facts.
The other thing about experience is that people will make decisions based completely statistically insignificant sample sizes (such as one or two time), also regardless of the fact that many others have completely different results. You see that quite a bit in these types of discussions. "I used to use bullet X and killed a pile of Y with them, but one time, at band camp, I shot a Z with them and it didn't die right there so I am never using that bullet again!!!"

A very good book to read regarding how people make decisions is Sidetracked by Francesca Gino

So, who here has experienced a “Marco Polo Sheep (hunt) in Tajikistan ($40k) and a Mountain Nyala (hunt) in Ethiopia ($70k)”?

 

[mt terry d]

Scenario: a Mountain Nyala is 1000 yards away and you've paid $500,000 to hunt it. This resulted in your wife leaving you and taking the kids with her. It's last light on your last day and you NEED to take the shot. But it's facing away quartering hard. The only shot you have is to put one through its back leg and hoping that bullet makes it into the vitals. WHAT DO YOU DO .223 MAN?

Doesn't matter if I'm toting a 50 BMG, I pass it up. Regardless of the cartridge, I'm not capable of ethically taking a thousand yard shot on an animal. However, if I were required to just try and hit it I'd choose my 223b over my 7wby mag or 300 win mag because I'm more accurate with it.

 

[TaperPin]

I can say that when practicing consistently I will average about-

18 to 19/20 with a 223 or equivalent

17 to 18/20 with a 6.5cm or equivalent

And it drops to 15/20 or so a 300mag.

You should convince yourself to stop being afraid of recoil. That explains a lot though.

 

[Southern Lights]

What bullet?

The real question is how many people should be trying a 644 yard shot under condition?



Hasn’t been our experience at all. We have killed more than 40 elk with 77gr TMK’s quite a few between 360m and 730 meters (400 and 803 yards), and they have all died without issue. The farthest one has ran was about 60 yards from a 190y shot.

I think very few should be shooting at 644 yards on animals they care about retrieving in field conditions. Always best to get closer if you can, and frankly most of the fun in hunting is getting in close anyway. The last deer I shot a few months back was around 614m(?) on a cull hunt. This is with a 270. I would never take that shot with my 223.

In NZ the .222 (almost identical to 223) was very popular with government deer cullers years back. They would be doing head/neck shots mainly at closer ranges. Other people saw the pros using 222 and it gained popularity but they found out that chest shooting animals with them was not the best idea. The NZ bush is very thick and an animal running can get quickly lost.

I suppose I don't understand the fascination with using a .223 at extended ranges when someone can use a 6.5 or even .243 with negligible recoil difference (especially is suppressed).

As much as I like the 223, I'd be taking my 6.5x55 or 270 if I really was going on an important hunt.