Do you support habitat protection on monuments if you can't hunt them?

[BroodBuster]

No hunting, and many other restrictions, at Mt St Halens NM but that makes sense to me as leaving it alone does prvide a unique opportunity for scientists to observe natures return from complete obliteration.

 

[Rob T]

On Craters of the Moon, President Clinton expanded the size of the preserve in 2002. It was a massive jump that frightened hunters, including myself. Fortunately, Rep. Mike Simpson, hunters and cattlemen were able to fashion a compromise that kept most of the preserve open for hunting. My point is simple: When organized, hunters can be a voice for reason and smart rules.

 

[robby denning]

My point is simple: When organized, hunters can be a voice for reason and smart rules.

Agreed but unfortunately can be like herding cats.

But is why we need to get organized, as the case you gave about Clinton is exactly what scares me about these things. The monuments created, someone gets their toe in the door, and then suddenly hunters are locked out.

You remember that in 2002 Rob T, it was unnerving when Clinton was making those moves and is why I made the prior comments about New presidents expanding their powers.


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[flyinsquirel]

I agree with you Robby, best not to give them an avenue to screw us in the future. I voted No, and this conversation hasn't changed my mind yet. We'll see where it goes.

 

[robby denning]

From the TRCP newsletter (you can subscribe once there if you want these newsletrters):

[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="align: left"]Featured News[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: left"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="align: left"]Public Land Transfer is Dying in the West, But Evolving in D.C.

Because of the overwhelming outcry from sportsmen and women, public land transfer has been largely stamped out in Western state legislatures. But now the fight has moved to D.C., and it presents a whole new set of challenges. Attacks on how these lands are managed are sneaky and lower profile, cloaked in confusing policy—yet every bit as dangerous.
This is why it’s not enough to simply keep it public.[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

 

[Shrek]

Thanks for the link. I see lots of scare tactics and the sage grouse stalking horse. This is a group with a far left greenie agenda trying to sucker hunters into supporting them imo.

 

[Rob T]

Shrek,

Thank you for your opinion. I, however, disagree with your conclusion. The organization's work speaks for itself and Joel Webster's blog post lays out threats to our hunting and fishing tradition, while also pointing out recent successes to blunt land transfer advocates.

In Idaho, TRCP's work is focused on giving hunters and anglers a voice in local, statewide and national politics. Recent successes include a public lands rally that drew nearly 3,000 people and a long overdue hunting license fee increase, which will help biologists and landowners as they continue to support healthy game populations. I am commenting on federal land use plans, trying to draw attention to a thriving hunting and fishing industry and its ties to wetlands, breeding grounds, migration routes, summer ranges and winter ranges. It is great work and I encourage you to join the worthy cause.

I am open talking about how best to protect hunting and fishing so my grandchildren can participate in the pastime that has given me so much. I am interested in your opinion, and the opinion of others on Rokslide, but let's debate the facts and shelve the lazy pejorative labels.

With respect,

Rob

 

[Shrek]

From top to bottom your group is a far left stalking horse. The support for National Monument status leaves hunters at a severe disadvantage in the future with the loss of multiple use protection and its tradition of being a stepping stone to National Park status. The Sage Grouse is just the most recent land closure stalking horse from the ESA stable. The anti "industrial" forest is really anti booming game numbers position as the patchwork of different age groups of forest make for ideal deer and elk habitat. Nothing in your stated agenda is actually any good for hunting or public land access. The TRS looks to me to be a front for the Sierra Club. I find the prejoritive labels of far left and greenie to be accurate and quite useful in pointing out your political parseltongue. The push to transfer the land to the states is a direct pushback to the leftist desire to end the commercial part of multiple use.

With contempt ,
Shrek

 

[BroodBuster]

^^^No scare tactics there^^^

 

[Jason Snyder]

I'm not sure what a stalking horse is, but I do know that sage grouse numbers continue to decline. As an obligate species, they are very susceptible to the impacts of energy development in the Great Basin and Northern Plains. What part of the science do you disagree with?

Part of human nature is two people looking at the exact same situation and seeing it completely differently because of biases and perspectives. I've never found this worthy of contempt. The fact that you do is disheartening, to say the least.

I'll send an extra 25 bucks to TRCP in your name.

Respectfully,

Jason

 

[Shrek]

Don't disagree with the decline of the sage grouse but I'm not willing to lock up half of the west to save them. The premise of the question I find repugnant ! "Give up your hunting rights to save the land "! Not every species will make it and in this crowded and competitive world the sage grouse is looking like a loser. The entire premise of the poll is anti hunting. This propaganda piece will be shown to ignorant and gullible politicians to tell them there's support in the hunting community for what are really anti hunting and anti access policies.

 

[WV Mountaineer]

Don't disagree with the decline of the sage grouse but I'm not willing to lock up half of the west to save them. The premise of the question I find repugnant ! "Give up your hunting rights to save the land "! Not every species will make it and in this crowded and competitive world the sage grouse is looking like a loser. The entire premise of the poll is anti hunting. This propaganda piece will be shown to ignorant and gullible politicians to tell them there's support in the hunting community for what are really anti hunting and anti access policies.

Nicely said.


It wasn't that long ago when science said logging was killing the spotted owl. Livelihoods were lost. At exponential rates to that "science". It's a little ironic that Science now shows that the great horned owl was the culprit. HMMM?????? The world was flat once according to science. The beauty and ugliness of science is that it can be made to fit a narrative.


I won't say this about the TRCP yet as I am unsure of their total position. But, I find it a little confusing when "hunting" organizations push agendas that are harmful to the longterm future of wildlife. It smells of politics. Like I said, I'm not suggesting that is the TRCP. Yet anyways.


God Bless men

 

[Rob T]

Shrek,

The point behind the poll wasn't stated clearly enough. I take full responsibility. Sorry.

The goal was to get the pulse of the Rokslide forum and its members. The goal was not some anti-hunting agenda. I wish I had a chance to rephrase the question, but I don't. Sorry.

I learned that it is an emotional topic and there is a distrust of the government. No surprise, certainly, but it is good information for somebody who is proudly working to protect hunting and fishing.

With respect,

Rob

 

[robby denning]

Shrek,

The point behind the poll wasn't stated clearly enough. I take full responsibility. Sorry.

The goal was to get the pulse of the Rokslide forum and its members. The goal was not some anti-hunting agenda. I wish I had a chance to rephrase the question, but I don't. Sorry.

I learned that it is an emotional topic and there is a distrust of the government. No surprise, certainly, but it is good information for somebody who is proudly working to protect hunting and fishing.

With respect,

Rob

We can run another poll anytime you want Rob T, just let me know


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[BroodBuster]

WV,
It was barred owls not great horned owls but point made. And I'd agree that science tends to evolve while humans tend to, ah, not.

p.s. Spotted owls are super cool! My 2nd favorite bird behind northern goshawks. Ravens don't count as they are simply way too smart to be classified as a simple bird.

 

[BroodBuster]

Hows this for a new Poll?

What is more difficult...

-Getting hunters to agree that the earth is round
-Herding cats
-Cornering a rat in a whiskey barrel

 

[Jason Snyder]

WV,
It was barred owls not great horned owls but point made. And I'd agree that science tends to evolve while humans tend to, ah, not.

p.s. Spotted owls are super cool! My 2nd favorite bird behind northern goshawks. Ravens don't count as they are simply way too smart to be classified as a simple bird.

Along with this point, the habitat loss WAS real. I grew up in some of this country, and the habitat damage due to massive clearcutting was as real as it gets. Predation by Barred Owls does not exonerate the massive old growth cutting as being highly detrimental to Spotted Owls. Practices have changed, but the migration of Barred Owls into that region showed that solely managing for habitat is not always the only answer.

 

[robby denning]

Shrek, I don't see it as an anti-hunting question.


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[Jason Snyder]

Don't disagree with the decline of the sage grouse but I'm not willing to lock up half of the west to save them. The premise of the question I find repugnant ! "Give up your hunting rights to save the land "! Not every species will make it and in this crowded and competitive world the sage grouse is looking like a loser. The entire premise of the poll is anti hunting. This propaganda piece will be shown to ignorant and gullible politicians to tell them there's support in the hunting community for what are really anti hunting and anti access policies.

Who said we needed to lock up half the west? Have you done any reading on the Sage Grouse conservation plan? It was fully designed to work within the parameters of multiple use, mitigating the impacts of energy development as best they could.

 

[WV Mountaineer]

Edit: Yes, I knew that. I just misspoke in my hurried attempt to post, cook supper, and shoot my bow all at the same time. :^)


Once again Jason, you missed mt real point. All birds of prey do better in open habitat. Young succession makes it harder for them to catch their prey. As the barred owl has moved west, many species have declined. Some no doubt due to loss of habitat. Others no doubt to the presence of competition or, the introduction of new predators.


So, with timber harvest specifications saying industry has to leave 40% of a timber stand around a known nesting pair, for better than a mile from that nest of spotted owls, how is it habitat caused their demise? Theoretically, the improved select harvest should have exploded their numbers. However, since 1990 their numbers have continued to drop. Why? Could it be the Barred owl is found at even higher numbers with the spotted owls range? It's the only constant in the equation of the spotted owl.


Since all birds of prey have been given a veil of protection from the federal government: Quail, grouse, squirrels, and many other prey species have dropped in population numbers. And, most of it is blamed on habitat. Where it no doubt has played a role in areas, how much of it truly lies with habitat loss? I truly don't know. Neither do the "scientists". But, there is one constant in all this. One will gain at another's expense. And, blaming a noble barred owl for the demise or reduction of an animal won't win nearly as many votes as blaming a dirty, greedy logger.



God Bless men