Did preference points ruin the west?

[cnelk]

^^^ The $$$ some people spend on elk hunts each year they could easily do Alaska every other year

I consider myself very fortunate to have drawn my OIL Colorado bull moose tag.

I liked moose hunting so much I went to Alaska to hunt them.

 

[AaronMColeman]

^^^ The $$$ some people spend on elk hunts each year they could easily do Alaska every other year

I consider myself very fortunate to have drawn my OIL Colorado bull moose tag.

I liked moose hunting so much I went to Alaska to hunt them.

Oh man that is a dream! An Alaska moose hunt would be so much fun.

 

[Trial153]

Points or no points, until there is hard muti state cap placed on individuals nothing will change. How can it when you have individuals sending out 25 or 30 applications a year.

 

[brockel]

Turn those preference points into a bonus points system

 

[cnelk]

Points or no points, until there is hard muti state cap placed on individuals nothing will change. How can it when you have individuals sending out 25 or 30 applications a year.

Stupid. Why not take it one step further and limit tag one per family?

 

[gbflyer]

Then you’d see point creep reach 50-100 in some units! The only way point creep will stop is when a bunch of people in their 60-80s start giving up due to old age/death. Every year you see the “I have 25 points, where should I hunt?” You’d think if you had 2.5 decades to decide you’d have a plan!


the elk talk podcast did a really good analysis of the PP system. Take a listen.

I have a friend who is a landowner in Unit 1, not enough property for landowner tags. He has 25 points. Still can’t draw as a non-resident. His plan is to take a bull in his unit I guess.

 

[npm352]

It is silly to me when people say, "I feel sorry for the kids...they'll never draw." This is true in preference point states as long as people who have points now start living until they are 155 years old and the kids die at a normal age. People age out and die. A kid who puts in as soon as they legally can and sticks with it can have the best chance of anyone not already at the top of eventually drawing a top end tag in their lifetime. Two things have to happen. The kid needs to live a long life, and people continue to age out or die.

 

[wapitibob]

I have a friend who is a landowner in Unit 1, not enough property for landowner tags. He has 25 points. Still can’t draw as a non-resident. His plan is to take a bull in his unit I guess.

23 points was 100% for unit 1 rifle in 2019 and all 3 nr with 20 or more points drew archery this year (2020).

 

[Trial153]

Stupid. Why not take it one step further and limit tag one per family?

Tags are already effectively limited, because the agency's set objectives. Barring an increase in tags, the only way to increase odds is decrease applications. Most, not all states have set up systems that were designed to increase total applications by in theory rewarding the failed application in future. That effectly created artificial year over year demand. When that is taken out of the equation the net worth of the remaining application just increased for the same number tags.
What's stupid doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

 

[5MilesBack]

It is silly to me when people say, "I feel sorry for the kids...they'll never draw."

That's because people seem to think that "everyone" should have a right at hunting that one unit that only gives out 7 tags a year (or any of the other draw units), and they HAVE to be hunting bulls. That's like giving a sandwich to a homeless person begging on the street corner, and they get mad because they didn't want a sandwich.

 

[cnelk]

Tags are already effectively limited, because the agency's set objectives. Barring an increase in tags, the only way to increase odds is decrease applications. Most, not all states have set up systems that were designed to increase total applications by in theory rewarding the failed application in future. That effectly created artificial year over year demand. When that is taken out of the equation the net worth of the remaining application just increased for the same number tags.
What's stupid doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

Anyone can hunt elk EVERY YEAR in states that have Pref Points [or 'effectively limited' as you call it]

All you have to do is some research, maybe give up the lust for antlers, and the possibility of hunting familiar units.

That is the different result you are referring to.

 

[AaronMColeman]

Anyone can hunt elk EVERY YEAR in states that have Pref Points [or 'effectively limited' as you call it]

All you have to do is some research, maybe give up the lust for antlers, and the possibility of hunting familiar units.

That is the different result you are referring to.

Exactly! It may not be the top notch units but we can all hunt elk most every year. That’s pretty cool.

 

[Legend]

Yes! Here is a little FACT....preference and bonus point system are only sustainable if you remove the top point holders (buy drawing the tag) within 2 or 3 years. If you do not have enough tags to allocate the system is designed to fail and cause serious point creep.

Also, we as hunters are further dividing ourselves into categories ( ex. rifle vs bowhunter, etc.). This will hurt us in the big picture. I am a max point holder on most species in MT and I will glad give them all away if we could go back to a straight draw that gives everyone, including my children, a chance.

 

[wapitibob]

Points aren't going anywhere. Better figure out how they work, what and when you can draw, and make a plan.

 

[Coveyleader]

Colorado is currently pretty flipping good. Sure, the NW corner, is out of reach for someone just starting, but it pretty much has always been that way. As someone above mentioned, it would be pretty easy to kill the "Creep" if "any tag drawn, picked up in LO list, etc "Resets" you points, but I don't see that happening. Also the PP code could also be "Axed" and that would help as well.

What I don't want to see is CO turning into a Utah, AZ, etc where you're sitting on the bench for years as a resident.

A couple "Tweeks" to our system and we'd be back to the best system in the West. I'm a product of Colorado being good. Been here almost 20 years, I've drawn a bull moose, two ram tags, two goat tags, high draw elk unit, and have punched tags on all of them. Currently I'm holding heavy on goats once again and hope to draw soon. Pretty hard for me to say Colorado doesn't have a good system. The rest of the West, you can keep it.

 

[ColoradoV]

Yea if Co got rid of "building points while you hunt" it would be a great system. With the way it is now it is built specifically to accelerate point creep and the associated fees that come with such things.

I would back only hunting one species a year in the west that would help things a lot. Guys killing 3-4 deer or elk in different states is just silly dont as I know how they eat all of them................

Also have to laugh a bit at the guys chasing the top units as if they put in the work guys would find there is no reason to wait 15+ years to chase a 350"+ bull or a 200" buck but most hunters are flat out lazy and scouting is hard while filling out a application and waiting is not. With a few exceptions most hunters need to blame the man in the mirror for not making the time and effort commitment to find and hunt big animals if that is what you are after as the cat staring back at ya is the one holding ya back not the state managing agencies..

Such a academic argument tho must be getting to the end of hunting seasons..

 

[AaronMColeman]

Points aren't going anywhere. Better figure out how they work, what and when you can draw, and make a plan.

Doesn’t mean we have to like them

I agree 100%. We have to plan for what is not what what we’d like to see. Interesting discussion but at the end of the day it’s like talking sports, nothing we can do to change the outcome (Aside from connect with conservation and hunting advocacy groups and remain aware of our state laws).

 

[Z Barebow]

I don't know if it ruined the west, but it has definitely charged the application research. In the old days, someone applied (w/o no strategy needed). Either you drew or you didn't.

Today, you need to research the units which you apply. You need to look at historical data for these units as well as try and forecast the future.

Am I a fan? No. But they are the "rules of the sandbox" for many states. For those who have been around PP's for a while, the one thing you can depend upon is change. ("The rules of the sandbox" will evolve!) Name a state that has implemented PP's and abandoned this approach? (Crickets) PP's aren't going away any time soon.

 

[trophyhill]

These kinds of things are why I think we have the best draw process in the west right here in NM. Luck of the draw. They have talked about a points system on occasion but get put in there place by the residence when they bring such nonsense up.

And then a bunch of people boycotted NM when they gave R more tags, took tags from NR and guaranteed tags for outfitters. Instead of boycotting outfitters and landowner tags where the problem lies, they boycotted the draw because why again?

 

[gbflyer]

23 points was 100% for unit 1 rifle in 2019 and all 3 nr with 20 or more points drew archery this year (2020).

Well I haven’t talked to him this year. Doubt he can pull a bow so archery is out.