Did Colorado Bucks Survive the 5-year Plan?

[robby denning]

Instead of just completely doing away with scopes, I’d like to see something like a 3-9x limit or no adjustable turrets. Wouldn’t limit you quite as far as no scopes but still give you the ability to take a solid 250-300 yard shot on a deer if you’re familiar with your rifle.
Doesn’t take long for one to disappear when you’ve lost sight of them while you’re closing the distance. I’d think quite a few more mature bucks would slip through the seasons with that.

I thought about that but you’d also have to eliminate hash marks or sub tensions, as some people call them. A guy that knows what he’s doing can get out to 700 yards or so with those.

 

[S.Clancy]

I thought about that but you’d also have to eliminate hash marks or sub tensions, as some people call them. A guy that knows what he’s doing can get out to 700 yards or so with those.

I think we should be targeting things that speed up the decision or ability to shoot first. Things like BDX scopes, range finding binoculars, etc., speed kills, IME. Those are easier to limit.

Then, I think just increasing restricted weapons seasons like open sight rifle, muzzy, etc. It's just easier than trying to dial back all this ridiculous any weapon technology

 

[mikeafeagin22]

All scope turrets are adjustable.

Come on man... you knew what I meant.

 

[BRTreedogs]

Idk I think weapons restrictions mite do something to limit over all harvest, for the easily discouraged.

I think the real big buck hunters that are serious are still gonna figure out how to take the cream off the top.

And I think there’s enough dumb 2 points for the average hunter to shoot from the road.

I think it could take more days to be successful, but I just don’t see a weapon restriction as that effective.

Heck compared to archery an open sight rifle is like a death ray, you don’t have to draw it and 150/200 yards is way farther then 60

 

[mikeafeagin22]

I thought about that but you’d also have to eliminate hash marks or sub tensions, as some people call them. A guy that knows what he’s doing can get out to 700 yards or so with those.

Yeah that’s a good point. Would be a nightmare for wildlife officers to attempt to enforce something like that. Just taking them completely out of the equation would streamline everything. Wonder how much the rate of wounded and not recovered deer would increase though.. you know there’s plenty of people who wouldn’t think twice about shooting at a big deer well outside of their ethical range in the heat of the moment.

 

[BRTreedogs]

Come on man... you knew what I meant.

Are you not familiar with long range shooting?
I understand you are talking about what is considered a typical long range scope.

I could easily spin the turret cap off and shoot 700 plus with a 3-9 no problem.

Not having a zero stop or exposures turrets would only slow me a fraction of a second.

It wouldn’t increase survival for any shooter that knew what they were doing.

 

[mikeafeagin22]

Idk I think weapons restrictions mite do something to limit over all harvest, for the easily discouraged.

I think the real big buck hunters that are serious are still gonna figure out how to take the cream off the top.

And I think there’s enough dumb 2 points for the average hunter to shoot from the road.

I think it could take more days to be successful, but I just don’t see a weapon restriction as that effective.

Heck compared to archery an open sight rifle is like a death ray, you don’t have to draw it and 150/200 yards is way farther then 60

That’s a good point.. I can’t think of many tags I’ve eaten on archery hunts that I wouldn’t have notched the tag with even an open sighted 30-30.. just being able to shoot instead of having to draw a bow is a huge difference

 

[mikeafeagin22]

Are you not familiar with long range shooting?
I understand you are talking about what is considered a typical long range scope.

I could easily spin the turret cap off and shoot 700 plus with a 3-9 no problem.

Not having a zero stop or exposures turrets would only slow me a fraction of a second.

It wouldn’t increase survival for any shooter that knew what they were doing.

I feel like you’re arguing just to argue. Obviously every scope has adjustable turrets. You, along with everyone else with any common sense whatsoever, knew exactly what I meant by that statement. If you’re going to say that every random hunter in the woods would be as efficient at taking a long range shot with a capped turret 3-9x scope as they would be with a 5-25x scope with a zero stop and open adjustable target turrets then we clearly do not agree and there is no point in continuing commenting back and forth about it.

 

[BRTreedogs]

I feel like you’re arguing just to argue. Obviously every scope has adjustable turrets. You, along with everyone else with any common sense whatsoever, knew exactly what I meant by that statement. If you’re going to say that every random hunter in the woods would be as efficient at taking a long range shot with a capped turret 3-9x scope as they would be with a 5-25x scope with a zero stop and open adjustable target turrets then we clearly do not agree and there is no point in continuing commenting back and forth about it.

Ok
So u think anyone proficient at doing it can do it with virtually any scope.

And the people that aren’t proficient can’t do it with whatever you give them.

IMO they ether are capable or not.

The amount of people that can kinda sorta do it with some equipment kinda sorta maybe are so few and far between, it’s not of significant difference to effect the outcome.

Now that may be some merit to the very proficient person that doesn’t want to buy/build a lesser setup. And the average person that’s what they own anyways.

But I can hand my system to a non proficient person and if I’m not there to coach them there probably gonna miss anyway.

 

[Felix40]

I feel like you’re arguing just to argue. Obviously every scope has adjustable turrets. You, along with everyone else with any common sense whatsoever, knew exactly what I meant by that statement. If you’re going to say that every random hunter in the woods would be as efficient at taking a long range shot with a capped turret 3-9x scope as they would be with a 5-25x scope with a zero stop and open adjustable target turrets then we clearly do not agree and there is no point in continuing commenting back and forth about it.

He’s not arguing just to argue. I thought the same thing as him. Every scope made can be dialed. My swfa doesn’t even need a full revolution to get to 600 yards. It would only take a couple seconds extra to dial a scope with a capped turret. There’s almost no difference if I just walked around with the cap off.

 

[mikeafeagin22]

Ok
So u think anyone proficient at doing it can do it with virtually any scope.

And the people that aren’t proficient can’t do it with whatever you give them.

IMO they ether are capable or not.

The amount of people that can kinda sorta do it with some equipment kinda sorta maybe are so few and far between, it’s not of significant difference to effect the outcome.

Now that may be some merit to the very proficient person that doesn’t want to buy/build a lesser setup. And the average person that’s what they own anyways.

But I can hand my system to a non proficient person and if I’m not there to coach them there probably gonna miss anyway.

What I’m saying is is that you are giving far too much credit to the average guy drawing a deer tag he just spent 20 points on. There’s always going to be a few guys that are going into any hunt as prepared as possible and they are going to go find a solid mature animal no matter what limitation you put on them. But the whole discussion is about limiting the average hunter’s efficiency. A substantial portion of the people drawing tags in the particular area we are talking about without dropping unit numbers is going to have applied for somewhere in the 15-20 year range for a third season tag. They aren’t grinding out second choice units honing their skills year in and year out. They’ve been banking points for their “dream” hunt that they are gonna go buy a brand new rifle for when draw results come out in June and spend a few days at a range getting “dialed”. You hand them a capped turret scope that they can’t just have their guide say spin to 7 MOA and hold on the vitals then you are 100% going to limit efficiency. You can’t make management decisions based on the top 5% of hunters in a unit or they’d cut every season to 10 tag holders. That’s all I’m saying.

 

[camelcluch]

Haven’t listened to the podcast yet but I did attend a DMU meeting about the deer heard and its health. I do believe the biologist know what is good for the animals and constantly looking to improve things. However. They are also controlled politically on what they are allowed to say and release. In the meeting I went to, the biologist admitted to a decline but blamed CWD. There was no historical data to prove this and no way for them to show CWD mortality. When asked about the gross increase in tag numbers in the units, he just skipped over and eluded that he wasn’t allowed to talk about it.
Again, I believe that most wildlife agencies strive for the best. Sometimes they are stuck in the same nasty game with a hateful governor and his worse husband.
Good luck to you all. Keep up the good fight.

 

[Felix40]

You hand them a capped turret scope that they can’t just have their guide say spin to 7 MOA and hold on the vitals then you are 100% going to limit efficiency.

You really don’t think most guys could turn this to 7 MOA?

 

[BRTreedogs]

What I’m saying is is that you are giving far too much credit to the average guy drawing a deer tag he just spent 20 points on. There’s always going to be a few guys that are going into any hunt as prepared as possible and they are going to go find a solid mature animal no matter what limitation you put on them. But the whole discussion is about limiting the average hunter’s efficiency. A substantial portion of the people drawing tags in the particular area we are talking about without dropping unit numbers is going to have applied for somewhere in the 15-20 year range for a third season tag. They aren’t grinding out second choice units honing their skills year in and year out. They’ve been banking points for their “dream” hunt that they are gonna go buy a brand new rifle for when draw results come out in June and spend a few days at a range getting “dialed”. You hand them a capped turret scope that they can’t just have their guide say spin to 7 MOA and hold on the vitals then you are 100% going to limit efficiency. You can’t make management decisions based on the top 5% of hunters in a unit or they’d cut every season to 10 tag holders. That’s all I’m saying.

What leads you to believe dialing and shooting 700 yards with a capped turret 3-9 is different then an exposed turret 5-25 besides having to remove the cap first?

There a person knows how to shoot long range or they don’t
3-9 or 5-25 it makes no difference.

They are either capable of setting up the system and utilizing it or not.

There is no magic Vodou in a typical long range scope and isn’t in a lower zoom scope.

 

[mikeafeagin22]

What leads you to believe dialing and shooting 700 yards with a capped turret 3-9 is different then an exposed turret 5-25 besides having to remove the cap first?

There a person knows how to shoot long range or they don’t
3-9 or 5-25 it makes no difference.

They are either capable of setting up the system and utilizing it or not.

There is no magic Vodou in a typical long range scope and isn’t in a lower zoom scope.

First one is 25x zoom through my spotter and the second is through 10x binos so I’m adding even more zoom than the scope. Looking at a standard 8” birchwood Casey stick on target that we all can surely agree is a decent indicator of a deer’s vitals. So you’re telling me right now if you lined up the roughly 200 or so people drawing 3rd season rifle tags in that group of units and handed them a rifle with a capped turret 3-9x scope and said here take a 700 yard shot on that dot and they’d be just as accurate on target as you handing them a rifle setup with a 5-25x exposed turret scope? Half the people on that hunt would barely be able to see the target behind their reticle at 700, let alone shoot an accurate shot.

Now throw them in a situation where they have been working harder than they have all year long to rush to the knob to take a shot at their dream deer they’ve burned 15 years of points on and there isn’t a difference? Do you also find just as many deer when you’re glassing with a pair of 8s as you do with some 15s? What’s the point of a spotting scope when you’re glassing for deer? If you know how to glass then there’s no difference between 10s and 15s. There’s no magic voodoo in more magnification.

Once again, state game agencies don’t manage their herds for the Bob Lee Swaggers of the woods. Just because you can shoot the wings off a fly at 300 with an iron sighted rifle doesn’t mean that’s the average.

 

[mikeafeagin22]

By the way, I apologize to everyone else for completely derailing this thread over the weirdest p*ssing match I’ve ever participated in. That’s the last I’ll comment on it.

 

[BRTreedogs]

First one is 25x zoom through my spotter and the second is through 10x binos so I’m adding even more zoom than the scope. Looking at a standard 8” birchwood Casey stick on target that we all can surely agree is a decent indicator of a deer’s vitals. So you’re telling me right now if you lined up the roughly 200 or so people drawing 3rd season rifle tags in that group of units and handed them a rifle with a capped turret 3-9x scope and said here take a 700 yard shot on that dot and they’d be just as accurate on target as you handing them a rifle setup with a 5-25x exposed turret scope? Half the people on that hunt would barely be able to see the target behind their reticle at 700, let alone shoot an accurate shot.

Now throw them in a situation where they have been working harder than they have all year long to rush to the knob to take a shot at their dream deer they’ve burned 15 years of points on and there isn’t a difference? Do you also find just as many deer when you’re glassing with a pair of 8s as you do with some 15s? What’s the point of a spotting scope when you’re glassing for deer? If you know how to glass then there’s no difference between 10s and 15s. There’s no magic voodoo in more magnification.

Once again, state game agencies don’t manage their herds for the Bob Lee Swaggers of the woods. Just because you can shoot the wings off a fly at 300 with an iron sighted rifle doesn’t mean that’s the average.

I don’t think the average fudd is going to make a precise shot no matter what you put in there hands.
Equipment and proficiency are 2 different things.
For example put the most bestest bow setup in there hands possible and ask them to make a shot past 60

The equipment doesn’t matter, they suck ether way.

 

[willfrye027]

By the way, I apologize to everyone else for completely derailing this thread over the weirdest p*ssing match I’ve ever participated in. That’s the last I’ll comment on it.

It’s a good discussion and worth having. I have to agree with the other posters though. 3-9 would not limit myself or other serious long range guys, turrets or no. And the 5-25x scope you bring up is probably hurting the average long range wannabe and he would do better with a 3-9.

I think with centerfire rifles it would have to be open sights or possibly 1x to truly limit long range kills.

 

[mikeafeagin22]

It’s a good discussion and worth having. I have to agree with the other posters though. 3-9 would not limit myself or other serious long range guys, turrets or no. And the 5-25x scope you bring up is probably hurting the average long range wannabe and he would do better with a 3-9.

I think with centerfire rifles it would have to be open sights or possibly 1x to truly limit long range kills.

I think that’s what kind of got lost in the weeds throughout all of that. I’m not saying that it would limit serious long range guys. That’s why I said that there’s always going to be a few guys that it doesn’t matter what you do to limit them, they are going to go into the hunt and get it done. I’m talking about the average person that pulls a high demand tag in a preference point system.

I feel like we can all agree that later dates for the 3rd and 4th rifle seasons are the focal point of the diminished age class problem. The average people going on those hunts is not a serious long range guy. They have waited 15 years for their third season tag or over two decades for their fourth. I can almost guarantee you that out of everyone who draws those tags this year, not 10% of them have spent enough time behind a rifle to be in that serious long range category. Just being dedicated enough to hunting to join an online forum pushes anyone on this forum past a substantial number of people that pull a tag every year. All I’ve said from the beginning is limiting factors would cut efficiency for the average guy out there. I’m not talking about the guy that you can drop in any unit out west and they are pulling a mature buck out of it. They allocate tags factoring in averages.

I completely agree with you 100% that there are always going to be a select number of people going into a hunt that are going to be extremely proficient with whatever weapon they are carrying in the field regardless of rules or regulations about scopes, turrets, or any other thing think up but that’s not who they are focused on limiting. The majority of all tag holders each season might have run 30 rounds through their rifle that year before they leave for the hunt. Or just go visit a bow shop in August and see how many guys are looking for their new arrows and broadheads for the season that starts in three weeks…

 

[willfrye027]

I think that’s what kind of got lost in the weeds throughout all of that. I’m not saying that it would limit serious long range guys. That’s why I said that there’s always going to be a few guys that it doesn’t matter what you do to limit them, they are going to go into the hunt and get it done. I’m talking about the average person that pulls a high demand tag in a preference point system.

I feel like we can all agree that later dates for the 3rd and 4th rifle seasons are the focal point of the diminished age class problem. The average people going on those hunts is not a serious long range guy. They have waited 15 years for their third season tag or over two decades for their fourth. I can almost guarantee you that out of everyone who draws those tags this year, not 10% of them have spent enough time behind a rifle to be in that serious long range category. Just being dedicated enough to hunting to join an online forum pushes anyone on this forum past a substantial number of people that pull a tag every year. All I’ve said from the beginning is limiting factors would cut efficiency for the average guy out there. I’m not talking about the guy that you can drop in any unit out west and they are pulling a mature buck out of it. They allocate tags factoring in averages.

I completely agree with you 100% that there are always going to be a select number of people going into a hunt that are going to be extremely proficient with whatever weapon they are carrying in the field regardless of rules or regulations about scopes, turrets, or any other thing think up but that’s not who they are focused on limiting. The majority of all tag holders each season might have run 30 rounds through their rifle that year before they leave for the hunt. Or just go visit a bow shop in August and see how many guys are looking for their new arrows and broadheads for the season that starts in three weeks…

I am with you 100%. Earlier season dates and Colorado would probably be amazing again. Seems like the deer populations are doing well in a lot of places.

Put second season back in mid/late October and give out a million tags..there will still be big bucks rutting does at thanksgiving. Would be nice to see earlier 3rd/4th seasons and less tags for those as well.

My local unit in CA gives out 10,000 tags for a relatively small zone. You can buy two tags OTC. Long archery season, long rifle season but always ends well before the rut or migration. It’s amazing how many old crusty bucks are on the winter range rutting.