Deception in the hunting community

[Jeff Martin]

The so called elk expert name is killing me ...another year without an elk, etc... probably doesn’t exist.


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[stumpy waters]

Stumpy are you saying you believe in a free for all? Not everything should have to be written into law. Ethical hunting is slipping away in favor of instant rewards. Yes some practices don't meet fair chase standards sorry if you don't feel that way

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LOL not at all.

Surely you don't think that game laws should be based on 'ethics'. I realize there is some influence of ethics within game laws and that's not a bad thing, but game laws are (or should be) based solely on biology. The day ethics takes over game management and game regulations we are all screwed.

I am saying that discussions of 'ethics' become ignorant quick because everyone has a different idea of 'ethics' and feel like everyone else should hunt exactly like they do, or they are not hunting and/or not hunting. And hence we get threads like this.

And that same problem goes right into fair chase. Answer some of my questions above regarding either (fair chase or ethics). Is an 800 yard shot either of the two? What about a 1200 yard short? Are scopes? Game cameras? What about baiting? Fair chase or is that even hunting since you just sit and wait? We could go on and on and on.

This whole thread is laughable. The guy comes on here talking about how others are hunting, their use of social media, etc. but look what he is doing? Using someone media to whine about an individual. If you don't like someone, sure by all means start a thread. If you think game cameras are unethical, discuss it. Wont get you anywhere but discuss it.

If the guy the OP isn't doing anything illegally, and if the OP hates him so bad, why not just turn the TV off and unfollow him? What's the obsession with hating a fellow man so badly that you are this obsessed with him?

I guess I just live differently than a lot of other folks.

 

[NoWiser]

There was an initiated measure years ago in ND to ban HFH (high fence hunting). Now this is North Dakota, our HF operations are few and far between. A drop in the bucket compared to anywhere else... It was started by a group of friends trying to push their ethics into law. The far majority of hunters were against the measure. While I understand that HFH isn't hunting, I was not about to support something that had the backing of the HSUS. HSUS teamed up with "hunters". How damn ironic is that?!?! Most non hunting residents probably didn't even know what HFH was before that deal started. But when HSUS got involved, boy the money started flowing and ads and commercials were everywhere.

Moral of the story for me. I was not going to support something the biggest anti hunting organization supports.
I was not going to push my ethics on to others, and further divide the hunting community.
I was not going to infringe on private property rights of ranchers/HFH operators/neighbors. Because that's what they are, private property, livestock.
Where does one stop and draw the line with all of this??? Who decides what's "ethical" and what isn't?

My days of getting worked up because of what other people are doing, or view as hunting, are over. I got more important things in life to worry about.

That's a ridiculous reason for not voting against high fence operations.

Notice any pattern on the map below? Wait until it's proven that CWD can cross the barrier between cervid and human and then try to paint a rosy picture of the future of hunting.

If I was a state without a gray or yellow spot on the map, I'd be trying damn hard to put an end to any form of farming wildlife and if the HSUS wanted to help, all the better.

 

[weatherbow21]

I quit going on Facebook long ago, but I do spend time periodically throughout the day looking through instagram. There are a lot of hunters on there I have a lot of respect for, real killers, it bothers me at times to see them pushing products like stupid supplement companies, rubber band bows and even legit stuff like great clothing companies, BUT I can't blame them for trying to pursue their dream. Personally I like the outdoors as my hobby and would never want to make it become work. My wife is an attractive gal and a total killer, I have no doubt she could get some sponsors if she tried, its something we have talked about but I have no interest in it, I don't mind spending my hard earned money on whatever gear I choose, not whoever will give it to me and having to turn hunting trips into work with reviewing products, taking pictures and videos to promote, etc., but I try not to hate on others who have the desire to do so. The ones that really bother me are he guys who are cheerleaders for products, some great and some are just a hoax, but are rarely successful in filling tags, unless its either a canned, guided or private land hunt. I really have nothing against guided, or private land hunts if thats something you can do... but using the #earned hashtag doesn't set so well with me. Guys like Randy Newberg, that beyond the backcountry guy Zach, these guys fill tags in areas we all could and would hunt, don't always kill big stuff and aren't afraid to tell us about it. They push a few products... but I respect the way they are doing it.

 

[Whisky]

That's a ridiculous reason for not voting against high fence operations.

Notice any pattern on the map below? Wait until it's proven that CWD can cross the barrier between cervid and human and then try to paint a rosy picture of the future of hunting.

If I was a state without a gray or yellow spot on the map, I'd be trying damn hard to put an end to any form of farming wildlife and if the HSUS wanted to help, all the better.

View attachment 59556

Actually, there was a combination of reasons. Not just HSUS involvement. That fact that you're ok with getting in bed with HSUS, IMO, is ridiculous. Are you against all baiting also? Just curious

I'm not going to debate CWD with you as that's been done ad nauseam. But yes, I will acknowledge CWD as being a concern. I got no dog in this fight anymore, and could really care less either way.

 

[NoWiser]

I’m not a fan of baiting deer but if it’s legal, go for it. It isn’t legal in MN so when I see it, I report it. When I hunt Wisconsin in areas it’s legal, I have zero issue with hunters who choose to go that route.

My concern is with activities that jeopardize our wildlife and it’s very clear that high fence operations are doing that on a daily basis with the spread of disease. It’s crazy to vote against something important to the future of hunting just because an enemy will also be voting against it. In this case it’s in the best interest of the entire public (owners of the wildlife) to get rid of deer farms. Why wouldn’t hunters and activists agree on it?

Sorry if my post came off looking like I was blasting you a bit. Deer at a farm near where I hunt just tested positive. It’s a sore subject for me so I’ve got a bit of a hair trigger. Happy hunting!

 

[cuerro viejo]

That's a ridiculous reason for not voting against high fence operations.

Notice any pattern on the map below? Wait until it's proven that CWD can cross the barrier between cervid and human and then try to paint a rosy picture of the future of hunting.

If I was a state without a gray or yellow spot on the map, I'd be trying damn hard to put an end to any form of farming wildlife and if the HSUS wanted to help, all the better.

View attachment 59556

Wait until CWD shows up randomly hundreds of miles from any HF operation, you still going my to blame it on HF?

 

[NoWiser]

Wait until CWD shows up randomly hundreds of miles from any HF operation, you still going my to blame it on HF?

No, and I never said I would. But if the vast majority of new CWD cases originate from the captive cervid industry, does it not stand to reason that the vast majority could be prevented by making it illegal? That's like saying drinking and driving should be legal because some car accidents are not caused by drunk drivers.

If you want to farm, buy some cattle. There is absolutely no reason to turn wild animals into livestock and it boggles my mind that it is still legal anywhere.

 

[George]

Wait until CWD shows up randomly hundreds of miles from any HF operation, you still going my to blame it on HF?

Yep, I'm going to blame it on HF and the stock trailer that transported it.

G

 

[MAT]

Rumor has it that's how CWD got to the Midwest, someone (presumably a hunter) released a breeder buck from a HF operation to boost the genetics. That map above of CWD in wild cervids would look vastly different if HF never existed. That's what the "we need to stick together" and "if it's legal it's OK" mentality got us.

 

[Jeff Martin]

Rumor has it that's how CWD got to the Midwest, someone (presumably a hunter) released a breeder buck from a HF operation to boost the genetics. That map above of CWD in wild cervids would look vastly different if HF never existed. That's what the "we need to stick together" and "if it's legal it's OK" mentality got us.

Can someone Explain to me why Texas is not leading the CWD pack given they have the vast majority of HF ranches and Breeder farms? Texas is leading this arena by a mile...where is CWD is Texas?


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[NoWiser]

Can someone Explain to me why Texas is not leading the CWD pack given they have the vast majority of HF ranches and Breeder farms? Texas is leading this arena by a mile...where is CWD is Texas?


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Dumb luck. Just wait, it will happen.

 

[Gerard Marcaurele]

Edit: boy was I reading the wrong freakin websites! Seriously misinformed about CWD in Tx

 

[Molon Labe]

Can someone Explain to me why Texas is not leading the CWD pack given they have the vast majority of HF ranches and Breeder farms? Texas is leading this arena by a mile...where is CWD is Texas?

Very good point. Why did Norway have CWD show up in their caribou when there is no source/tracing of US captive cervid import?

No, and I never said I would. But if the vast majority of new CWD cases originate from the captive cervid industry, does it not stand to reason that the vast majority could be prevented by making it illegal? That's like saying drinking and driving should be legal because some car accidents are not caused by drunk drivers.

If you want to farm, buy some cattle. There is absolutely no reason to turn wild animals into livestock and it boggles my mind that it is still legal anywhere.

This is false. There are way more new CWD carrying animals in the wild compared to captive environments.
It is just easier to focus on the captive...easier topic...easier for HSUS to target/fund.
Domestic cervid have a longer life span than wild animals...the mutated prions need time to do their damage...
Symptoms don't show up for several years...in WI 80-90% of our wild deer are dead before they have their 2nd birthday...

CWD didn't just show up in the 60s in Wyoming and then spread around the US because of domestic deer...
TSEs like CWD have been around for thousands of years. It is in the soil...the water...plants...everywhere.
You can't kill the mutated prions with heat or freezing and they can be dormant for half a century.

instead of outlawing high fence operations...we should just stop the sale/shipment of domestic hay...since hay is known to allow prion binding.
While we are at it lets outlaw shipping corn outside of origin counties...because that corn could be eaten by a cow...then fecal matter deposits onto the ground...a deer eats the grass growing there...walla! New CWD case...
Maybe just outlaw all forms of domestic animal/crop production will stop the spread?
Or we could kill all the crows...crow eats on dead CWD infected deer gut pile...fecal matter deposited in a stream...duck eats celery holding prion...duck migrates...deposits fecal matter...prion binds to grass...deer eats grass...new CWD case...

You are trying to legislate your opinions and forcing people out of their lively hoods at gun point.
This is a horrible infraction on their individual rights and you should really reconsider your stance.
There are already steps in place for those places to monitor their herds...quarantine periods etc
Why are you good with baiting then? Direct saliva contact is the easiest way to transfer TSEs...
Look into HSUS a little more...that organization is pretty radical.
This is a case where the enemy of your enemy is not your friend!

Your drunk driving/CWD analogy is better served as: lets outlaw bars because that is the only time people get drunk and drive...

For the record I think that high fence hunting and pen raised deer/elk etc is garbage and shouldn't be a thing...same with baiting.

Sorry if this comes off as harsh but I bristle up anytime these organizations (HSUS) target individual rights passing it off for the "greater good" when that is not their motivation at all.

 

[George]

Can someone Explain to me why Texas is not leading the CWD pack given they have the vast majority of HF ranches and Breeder farms? Texas is leading this arena by a mile...where is CWD is Texas?


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The USGS link above provided by NoWiser shows where it is at in Texas.

G

 

[Jeff Martin]

The USGS link above provided by NoWiser shows where it is at in Texas.

G

Thanks - Texas is loaded with high fence ranches across entire state. One small area in the 2nd biggest state in the union? I am simply implying their is more to the story. That is not to say I am for or against anything although I do not hunt HF. But the arguments being made are very half baked in my opinion.


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[kscreekguy]

If you want to farm, buy some cattle. There is absolutely no reason to turn wild animals into livestock and it boggles my mind that it is still legal anywhere.

Where do you think those cattle came from? The great cattle farm in the sky?

 

[cuerro viejo]

The USGS link above provided by NoWiser shows where it is at in Texas.

G

Yes only two Breeders operations the rest are LF with no fences regardless of height for miles.

CWD was first discovered in west Texas with mule deer. Via regulations There hasn’t been deer importation in Texas for over a decades. Also all breeders have been testing for over 10 years. The one hit in medina is speculation to be from seman even though Mom didn’t have it, just her twin buck offspring


There is one gaurente with CWD... you really really want to find me it? Test for it


Breeders and HF ranchers aren’t the same thing.

 

[NoWiser]

Where do you think those cattle came from? The great cattle farm in the sky?

That's a lame response. Of course they didn't. But at our current point in history cattle are a domestic animal. Do you want to turn deer and elk into a domestic animal?

 

[cuerro viejo]

Texas doesn't have any kind of mandatory testing for hunters. You can voluntarily bring in deer, but there are no counties or areas that require all deer harvested to be tested. There have been multiple cases in recent years, all of which stemmed from a HF operation. Out of the voluntary testing performed on wild cervids, nothing has shown up.

Not saying that HF is the CAUSE of CWD, but the data seems to show that it doesn't help the cessation of the spread of deadly diseases. Disease outbreaks have been recorded in captive animal herds and it has been proven that the close proximity and lack of space to roam can contribute to a quicker spread of the disease.

For the record, I was adamantly pro-high fence until I started looking at instances of these diseases being discovered in the enclosures. I simply operate on the idea that these animals are wild creatures and wards of the state. The entirety of the people own these animals, not the folks that own the land on which they live. I have seen what a prevalence of high fences can do to hunting, and I am sad that my state is the front runner in this category.

That is incorrect info, we have had several hits in the panhandle and west Texas(no where close to a HF) Per numbers of test there is A higher positive rate outside of the fence.

The first 9 CWD hits where mule deer in west Texas. Also majority of HF have native herds and lower densities then outside the fence. Number one reason for a HF is to help get herds back down to or below CC.

HF reference in TX is not even compared to this forum since 99% of the people on this forum don’t hunt large private acreage nor do they hunt non migratory populations of deer/elk so it’s kind of futile attempt to help people understand the differences.

I’m not a fan breeders or released animals but HF don’t bother me