Custom Dial Opinions - Worth it?

[Antares]

I have 2 Leupold CDS scopes and I can't seem to commit to getting the custom dials made. I just make drop charts and keep the MOA turret on. I even have one gun that I pretty much exclusively shoot one load in, and I still haven't gotten around to getting a dial made for that.

My question is for those that switched from charts to custom dials. Was it a "game changer"? Is it worth it to be able to "range and dial" instead of "range, check chart, and dial"?

For reference, I'm talking about hunting situation inside 600 yards.

Thanks for you thoughts!

 

[hereinaz]

I don't do the custom dials. Do the ballistic solutions, and past 500 you start running into bad dope because environmental changes can effect it.

With a sufficiently flat shooting round, inside 600 is , meh, ok, if your turret is well enough matched to the environment you shoot in.

What are you shooting?

If, like me, you shoot at 1200 feet at home and hunt at 4500 and higher, you can't use the dial during practice and rely on poi. Going to 7000 feet in Colorado or high AZ mountains, its a massive difference.

Just today, from early cool morning to warm afternoon the DA went up by more than 1000 because of temperature alone. Add in nearly 6000 feet...

Unless you do cards for different DA, I wouldn't rely on just one card either.

Its not that you can't use them, it is that they lull you into a false sense of security. I am just particular about using the best data I can. There are so many other variables, I see no reason to leave the dope at good enough.

That's my point of view. I can get a ballistic solution fast enough with my gadgets, that its what I use.

If you get dials, make sure you match the environmental data.

 

[Wapiti1]

I know guys that do the custom dials and are very happy with them. Now, those guys also don't travel much to hunt. The dial is set to their usual hunting conditions and works for them all of the time. If they traveled more, they would run into the limitations of a custom dial.

I hunt from sea level up to 14,000 feet. So, I use MIL scopes or MIL reticle scopes and adjust for the conditions as needed.

I'm also a compulsive bullet tester and can't settle on one load for anything.

Jeremy

 

[Forest]

I've never got a custom for any of mine either, but I'm always changing something. If you are confident in your load and don't intend to ever travel with that gun I would definitely say go for it. Worst case you can always put the factory moa back on

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[zion zig zag]

I just ran the numbers on a ballistic calculator for 7mm RM, with a 160 grain Nosler Partition Federal Premium.
At 4000 feet, 50 degrees, 200 yard zero = 64.9 inches low at 600 yards.
At 10000 feet, 20 degrees, 200 yard zero = 61.1 inches low at 600 yards.

So 3.8 inches difference at the two extremes of what I would normally hunt at. And I usually limit shots to 400 yards, where the difference is less than an inch.

So I have to think for 90% of hunters, a custom dial is probably fine? What am I missing? I don't have one, because I don't typically dial, but just genuinely curious to hear from those more experienced.

 

[archp625]

No, too many factors with temp, elevation, ammo for me to be locked into a turret. Get an app like shooter and plug in all your info. Confirm drops, go hunting.

 

[Lawnboi]

I just ran the numbers on a ballistic calculator for 7mm RM, with a 160 grain Nosler Partition Federal Premium.
At 4000 feet, 50 degrees, 200 yard zero = 64.9 inches low at 600 yards.
At 10000 feet, 20 degrees, 200 yard zero = 61.1 inches low at 600 yards.

So 3.8 inches difference at the two extremes of what I would normally hunt at. And I usually limit shots to 400 yards, where the difference is less than an inch.

So I have to think for 90% of hunters, a custom dial is probably fine? What am I missing? I don't have one, because I don't typically dial, but just genuinely curious to hear from those more experienced.

3.8” off in either direction of a 1moa shot cone could be the difference between a long track job and a dead animal. That’s not even factoring in wind or shooter error. I’d want to be precise as I possibly could with the variable I can easily account for, and that bullet drop.

 

[Sierra Hunter]

I’m in a similar thought process and wouldn’t describe myself as a shooting enthusiast. However I’d like to be able to dial in the field vs hold over so thanks for throwing the topic out there

 

[davsco]

what do the custom turrets cost? do you keep the original turrets? easy enough to write down your holds on a piece of tape on your scope cap or buttstock etc. other than whatever the cost is, if you change loads etc that custom turret won't necessarily be 'on' with the new load.

and regarding the 3.8" diff, need to look at stacking tolerances. probably won't be as stable as back at your range off the bench, so with a little wobble that 4" could be 8".

when i shot my two elk at 200 and 400yds last year, with 100yd zero, i just held over as needed, didn't dial.

 

[2five7]

If you are confident in your load, and have tons of loaded ammo, or tons of the required components, and you hunt with a '3000 for or so elevation range, then yes, they are nice to have. But, you need all those things to line up for it to be worthwhile.

 

[PNWGATOR]

I simply apply my own custom turret for every hunt based on environmentals and have the ability to remove and replace during a hunt when things change. Inexpensive and effective. Affords the opportunity to dial mills as I prefer to do, but gives quick yardage references without going to a chart or app for a solution.

 

[hereinaz]

I just ran the numbers on a ballistic calculator for 7mm RM, with a 160 grain Nosler Partition Federal Premium.
At 4000 feet, 50 degrees, 200 yard zero = 64.9 inches low at 600 yards.
At 10000 feet, 20 degrees, 200 yard zero = 61.1 inches low at 600 yards.

So 3.8 inches difference at the two extremes of what I would normally hunt at. And I usually limit shots to 400 yards, where the difference is less than an inch.

So I have to think for 90% of hunters, a custom dial is probably fine? What am I missing? I don't have one, because I don't typically dial, but just genuinely curious to hear from those more experienced.

Inside 400 and 500, no, not much difference with a fast bullet that matters. Get into slower bullets and further distances and it can matter.

He said out to 600. Also, why I asked what bullet.

3.8 inches at 600. Let's look at more math. If it is 60 degrees at 10,000 feet its more, spring or early season.

1 moa rifle. 6 inches.
High ES factory ammo. 1 inch.
Field position buck fever. 2 inch.
CDS dial. 3.8 inches

You have reasonable cumulative errors more than 12 inches. I am not going to choose a system that gives up anything I don't need to. Add in ranging errors and you have many of the misses that happen in the wild.

People ignore reality and don't practice their system. I thought I had a system and could shoot until I tried to prove it in matches. Well, I didn't have a system and couldn't shoot. Good enough isn't good enough when 600 is on the table.

Limit shots inside 500 and most will be ok.

 

[hereinaz]

I simply apply my own custom turret for every hunt based on environmentals and have the ability to remove and replace during a hunt when things change. Inexpensive and effective. Affords the opportunity to dial mills as I prefer to do, but gives quick yardage references without going to a chart or app for a solution.
View attachment 270576

This is not a bad way to go, if you need fast.

My experience is that with long range, you have time and opportunity.

Unless you have practiced, making a shot at long range on a short time table requires too many variables.

I am not saying a person can't do it. But, someone asking introductory questions needs more information and knowledge to ask more than they know to ask.

It is good people are asking! Its a rather complex problem to solve and there is a learning curve.

Those are my thoughts.

 

[zion zig zag]

Inside 400 and 500, no, not much difference with a fast bullet that matters. Get into slower bullets and further distances and it can matter.

He said out to 600. Also, why I asked what bullet.

3.8 inches at 600. Let's look at more math. If it is 60 degrees at 10,000 feet its more, spring or early season.

1 moa rifle. 6 inches.
High ES factory ammo. 1 inch.
Field position buck fever. 2 inch.
CDS dial. 3.8 inches

You have reasonable cumulative errors more than 12 inches. I am not going to choose a system that gives up anything I don't need to. Add in ranging errors and you have many of the misses that happen in the wild.

People ignore reality and don't practice their system. I thought I had a system and could shoot until I tried to prove it in matches. Well, I didn't have a system and couldn't shoot. Good enough isn't good enough when 600 is on the table.

Limit shots inside 500 and most will be ok.

Thanks for the detailed response, it all makes perfect sense.

 

[WCB]

I personally run a DOPE chart. I then print them off for different elevations and temp ranges for my hunts. I think I have charts for every 2,000 feet and then for each elevation I have a couple different cards for temperature.

To me the dialing is the same...minus maybe 2 or 3 seconds I have to check dope. BUT...while hunting and moving in on an animal I usually know about how close I can get and put that distance +/- 100yds in my head from my dope sheet. So once I get to where I want to be and range the animal most the time I don't have to check my chart anyways I have the ranges I need memorized.

I have a couple buddies that have customer dials on their Leopold scopes and it works well to hit a 8 inch plate at 500 yards but mine in more precise.

Also, are you using factory or hand loads? Some hand loads have a range off close to 100 fps with the average marked on the box. So from one lot to the next it could be 100fps off. Add in that difference + your group size + differences in environmentals + shooting from hunting positions.

 

[missjordan]

No, if you have any variables change it will be off. Your load, weather, elevation can all make your point of impact change. Maybe if your shots are under 500 yards but then you can just calculate the hold in the reticle yourself. I wouldn’t feel comfortable taking shots at an animal doing it that way


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[Firestone]

I think leupold gives you one for free with every scope. So why wouldnt you get one made. I got it for the average condtions i think i will use the particular rifle for. If the conditions your gonna be hunting are way off put the moa turret back on before you leave the house. I have one on my mule deer rifle here in montana, if i go to Colorado this year i will put the moa turret back on for sure.

 

[hereinaz]

I personally run a DOPE chart. I then print them off for different elevations and temp ranges for my hunts. I think I have charts for every 2,000 feet and then for each elevation I have a couple different cards for temperature.

To me the dialing is the same...minus maybe 2 or 3 seconds I have to check dope. BUT...while hunting and moving in on an animal I usually know about how close I can get and put that distance +/- 100yds in my head from my dope sheet. So once I get to where I want to be and range the animal most the time I don't have to check my chart anyways I have the ranges I need memorized.

I have a couple buddies that have customer dials on their Leopold scopes and it works well to hit a 8 inch plate at 500 yards but mine in more precise.

Also, are you using factory or hand loads? Some hand loads have a range off close to 100 fps with the average marked on the box. So from one lot to the next it could be 100fps off. Add in that difference + your group size + differences in environmentals + shooting from hunting positions.

Dope cards like that are a good idea.

Keep watching the Tips I do every week. Eventually I will break this stuff down. But for now, here is a start.

DOPE cards are really simple. You just need to know the air density. Air density is a factor of air pressure, temperature and humidity. Humidity has such a small effect that if you set it at 50% it will be fine.

Elevation plus temp is OK, but using elevation is just a rough measure for air pressure. Air pressure stays relatively steady at elevation, but can fluctuate at highs and low pressure systems with weather.

Absolute Pressure/Station Pressure is what air pressure is called. Using it and Temp is best.

Density Altitude is a formula that combines Absolute Pressure and Temp to one number. My Fenix 5 does it, but I use the separate "Tempe" because my internal watch sensor is affected by the temperature of my wrist/body.

If you have a Garmin Fenix or other device that will give you station/absolute pressure that is better to combine with temperature. And, you can just do Density Altitude cards. I have a widget that gives me density altitude.

Ultimately, getting a Sig Kilo 2000, 2200, or 2400 BDX is a stupid simple solution for getting your dope immediately inside 600 yards.

And, remember, besides air density, there is also line of sight distance versus actual horizontal distance of the shot, so make sure your rangefinder has an inclinometer.

There are just so many things that come into play that you have to really be on your game not to compound errors into a clean miss that you might not understand. I still miss when I practice in field positions. Most often these days it is because of fundamentals of marksmanship issues, but I still have other brain fart errors.

It is exactly because I do it regularly and still screw up that I caution and have reservations about solutions like a CDS. A large majority of people asking about the dial are just getting into long range shooting, and the companies and people selling them aren't interested in explaining the drawbacks of the system.

 

[Antares]

Thanks for all the input guys, this is awesome.

For whatever reason, I'm reluctant to make my phone part of my shot process while hunting. That said, I make dope cards for every hunt using 4DOF, with specific DA parameters. I hunt between sea level and 8000ft in a given year. I'm shooting 6.5CM and .308 Win, mostly 6.5CM at distance.

Maybe I'll get a turret made for my most common conditions at home (it's free from Leupold). But mostly this thread has reinforced my idea that turrets are pretty limiting if you want precision, so cards (or solvers) are really the way to go.

@Uplander81 - PM sent

 

[Steve from GA]

This is an interesting question, and as a Leupold scope owner who is relatively new to hunting and also has limited access to long distance ranges, I plan on going with the custom dial. I'm also someone who doesn't plan to shoot past 400 yards. Looking at the Federal ballistics calculator (which I realize is not the most sophisticated) for my factory load, the difference in drop between 400 yards under GA conditions and 400 yards under WY conditions is 1.8 inches. It is interesting to note the difference in wind drift, though. When I order my dial for my first elk hunt, I will likely order it based upon WY conditions. If I'm a couple of inches off when using the same dial to hunt pigs in GA, so be it. It works for me as a beginner, but I have no doubt that as my knowledge builds, I'll want to become more precise. For right now, the CDS seems like a good system for my purposes.