Creedmoor for Brown Bear Hunt

[Choupique]

a couple prairie dogs at mach 2

Two prarie dogs combined at 2500 fps is about 430,000 ft-lbs of energy.

Definitely magnum wallop status

 

[Alaska92]

These stories need to stop. Yes there are lots of rifles chambered in smaller cartridges in the villages, the hunting practices are often questionable and you only hear the one success story, not the dozens of stories of lost animals or moose that took 15 bullets to die, or caribou that were so blasted up there was nothing left to harvest.

When I first moved to AK I believed all the stories too. Not anymore.

………once again on this forum……people claiming knowledge of such things that they have no experience with.

 

[BLJ]

Two prarie dogs combined at 2500 fps is about 430,000 ft-lbs of energy.

Definitely magnum wallop status

And you know a prairie dog at that speed penetration won’t be an issue.

Definite exit.

 

[IDVortex]

A humans turd is roughly a pound in weight. At mach 2 it would be about 36,000 ft lbs. Guess a crap can be deadly.

 

[BLJ]

A humans turd is roughly a pound

1 turd is a pound????

 

[IDVortex]

1 turd is a pound????

According to Google. I swear mine are way bigger.

 

[BLJ]

I swear mine are way bigger.

If you’re passing nuggets like that you win.

This thread has proved that humans are the superior beings once again.

 

[Choupique]

My entire dumps rarely exceed 1.5 pounds.

I weight myself before and after. Yall some sasquatches.

At mach 2 my individual average turd would only be about 28,000 ft lbs

 

[Kyguy]

The crap these threads become.... I mean shit.

 

[YaakRiver]

No guide is going to be allowing that… No resident I know would purposely under gun themselves on a dedicated coastal brown bear hunt… Are these even real questions from bear hunters or just folks day dreaming that’ll never actually be in that position? Same for the mysterious keyboard experts that claim they’d use a 223 cal rifle when they live thousands of miles from the nearest brown bear. If you really live that life you don’t ask for internet opinions you just bring the whatever the adequate gun you’re comfortable with is

I'm an outfitter and guide in NW Montana - we don't hunt interior or coastal brown bears obviously but we do have a good density of grizzlies here. I just want to point out that I would much rather have a client show up with a "small" caliber, that he has practiced with extensively because recoil doesn't beat him up and because the cartridges are reasonably affordable, rather than arriving with a heavy recoiling magnum caliber that he rarely shoots. I have had far more 1 shot kills on black bears, elk and deer by clients shooting 7mm-08 and smaller cartridges and far more wounding shots and/or lost game with the magnum calibers. I have friends who guide in AK for brown bears who share that experience. If I started a brown bear operation in AK tomorrow, and a client called me asking if he should bring his 338 RUM that he only shoots to verify zero, or the 6mm ARC that he practices with all the time - I'm having him bring the 6 ARC.

 

[Thegman]

Nothing to apologize for but I can all but guarantee that 99% of the people telling these stories have never even been to s village or spent much time hunting with the locals.

People romanticize when whole “natives use 223s and 243s” yet they are trying to form opinions based one just one part of the story. Yes there are 243s in villages, there are also a TON of 338s and 300s. Hell the most serious “traditional” native hunter I know uses a 300wm.

The thing nobody talks about is how the locals are largely unregulated by the law or fish and game out in villages, my friend was the warden of the area and wouldn’t even bother in villages because it’s not like you are going to write s ticket and the guy is going to stop hunting.

Here’s a true story: I was working and living in a village of around 100 people back in 2016, I got in with the locals pretty quick and made friends with a bunch of them. I got invited out on a snowmachine caribou hunt which I was really excited about. I had a Kimber 308 and we headed out on a large river. Within a few hours we were on caribou, I was with 5 other guys who all had AR15s. We came around a bend into a small heard of about 100 animals. The guys I was with just started emptying their guns into the heard, it was horrifying. There were wounded animas, dead calf’s, blood trails going every direction. I bet 60 rounds were fired and about 5 animals killed.

They made no effort to track wounded animals and don’t want to wart bullets finishing off wonder animals, it was terrible. That evening they didn’t even want to deal with animals so they stacked bodies on a porch, the next morning 3 of the caribou had been dragged off by dogs and no effort was made to recover them.

All those guys I was with seemed to think that was normal, they also talked a lot about how good their 223 is and how it’s all you need.

People who never lived in places like that hear: the natives use 223s so it’s all you need.

The point here though, really isn't the cartridge your companions were using, it's how they were choosing to use them and how they choose to hunt.

I imagine the results would have been about the same had they been carrying AR10s and shooting 308 Winchester in the same way they were shooting 223. And...the results would also have been very different had they been carrying e.g., 223 bolt action rifles and carefully placing their shots. You and your companions would most likely have killed every animal you chose to shoot and wasted nothing.

The above isn't a cartridge discussion, it's a culture discussion.

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Another thought: What you describe of your companions is in some ways situational. I see essentially the same thing with a lot of people shooting hogs in the lower-48. My OK neighbors do exactly the same thing with their AR-15s when shooting into a hog sounder, and don't think twice about it; and I doubt they'd be any more effective if they chose to use AR-10s.

We seem to be be generally okay with the idea of "eradication" with hogs, but (understandably), not at all with other game animals. It's difficult to wrap one's head around shooting caribou like you're trying to eradicate them...

 

[Thegman]

Exactly. Natives don’t hunt with small caliber weapons because they are effective. They hunt with them because that’s what they have access to. End of story.

Do you really think they don't have access to larger caliber "weapons" if they so choose? They have access to the same firearms we do. What they use is what they choose to use, not what they have to use.

 

[thinhorn_AK]

The point here though, really isn't the cartridge your companions were using, it's how they were choosing to use them and how they choose to hunt.

I imagine the results would have been about the same had they been carrying AR10s and shooting 308 Winchester in the same way they were shooting 223. And...the results would also have been very different had they been carrying e.g., 223 bolt action rifles and carefully placing their shots. You and your companions would most likely have killed every animal you chose to shoot and wasted nothing.

The above isn't a cartridge discussion, it's a culture discussion.

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Another thought: What you describe of your companions is in some ways situational. I see essentially the same thing with a lot of people shooting hogs in the lower-48. My OK neighbors do exactly the same thing with their AR-15s when shooting into a hog sounder, and don't think twice about it; and I doubt they'd be any more effective if they chose to use AR-10s.

We seem to be be generally okay with the idea of "eradication" with hogs, but (understandably), not at all with other game animals. It's difficult to wrap one's head around shooting caribou like you're trying to eradicate them...

No. The point is that people always make these claims that “natives hunt with ……”, when in fact 99% of people who say stuff like that don’t understand the reality of what actually occurs in rural Alaska.

 

[thinhorn_AK]

Do you really think they don't have access to larger caliber "weapons" if they so choose? They have access to the same firearms we do. What they use is what they choose to use, not what they have to use.

They absolutely do have access to other bigger cartridges. People like to make it sound like 223 and 243 is all they could possibly have but I’ve seen lots of 300s, 338a and everything else.

 

[Thegman]

No. The point is that people always make these claims that “natives hunt with ……”, when in fact 99% of people who say stuff like that don’t understand the reality of what actually occurs in rural Alaska.

True enough, but that reality has little or nothing to do with the cartridge being used and everything to do with how the cartridge is being used.

Last year there was a proposal to outlaw the use of 223 for moose because of things like you're describing. Problem is, as I stated then, the same kinds of things being described were happening in the 90s with AK47s and 7.62x39 when both of those flooded the market here and were dirt cheap. They were used in the same way, with the same results. Going from a .224" bullet back to a .311" bullet wasn't going to change the outcome.

And to be clear, this isn't universal to any group. My Yupik friends don't hunt like this, and do quite well with small caliber rifles.

 

[SDHNTR]

Do you really think they don't have access to larger caliber "weapons" if they so choose? They have access to the same firearms we do. What they use is what they choose to use, not what they have to use.

Yeah you’re right. There’s a gun shop on the corner of every native Alaskan village. Right next to the McDonalds and in the same strip mall as the Bass Pro Shops where they can get all the ammo they want.

Gimme a break. Big, small or whatever. They use what they have access to in their family. If that happens to be .223 or 7.62x39 and a rickety mil surp AK 47, that’s what they use. My point is, they don’t hunt with gun A or gun B because of ballistic advantages. And I will certainly agree with you that the tactics at play (spray and pray) are far more troublesome than cartridge choice, but coincidentally .223 and 7.62x39 tends to go hand in hand with such tactics.

 

[Thegman]

Yeah you’re right. There’s a gun shop on the corner of every native Alaskan village. Right next to the McDonalds and in the same strip mall as the Bass Pro Shops where they can get all the ammo they want.

Gimme a break. Big, small or whatever. They use what they have access to in their family. If that happens to be .223 or 7.62x39 and a rickety mil surp AK 47, that’s what they use. My point is, they don’t hunt with gun A or gun B because of ballistic advantages. And I will certainly agree with you that the tactics at play (spray and pray) are far more troublesome than cartridge choice, but coincidentally .223 and 7.62x39 tends to go hand in hand with such tactics.

Wtf, do you think they make their firearms out of willow twigs and driftwood and never leave their village? Where do you think they get their firearms in the first place? They buy them in stores, just like you do.

When at said store, they have exactly as many choices as you do at said store and choose what they choose, just like you do. And yes, very likely they buy them at Cabelas, Sportsman's Warehouse...or Bass Pro in Anchorage, while perhaps stopping in at the McDonalds just above said Bass Pro.

The point is, maybe it's not as immediate access as you have, but they have access to every firearm you do. What they use is by choice, not because they have no choice.