CPW Commission is proposing ALL DRAW for elk

[MallardSX2]

Turning everything to a draw, forcing people to front the money for an tag, and Forcing people to burn their preference points for any tag drawn will reduce elk preference point creep and otc pressure by a significant amount.

That is all.

 

[Northpark]

Turning everything to a draw, forcing people to front the money for an tag, and Forcing people to burn their preference points for any tag drawn will reduce elk preference point creep and otc pressure by a significant amount.

That is all.

I think your spot in here. I know a lot of people that refuse to buy the qualifying license for a chance to draw but will buy OTC tags. I think if everything went draw, you had to buy the license and then up front tag costs, and if you went to a system like Az where no matter which choice tag you draw you lose your points the amount of people headed to CO would drop.

 

[Poser]

YOU ARE EXACTLY RIGHT! I agree with every comment you made. You are preaching to the choir. I am also in favor of All Draw.

Just For Clarification ... I have seen some absolutely outstanding Bulls in GMU 76 and I know where they tend to hang out. Therefore, I would love to hunt it. I merely stated that I will never have the opportunity to do so with the present point system. There is no "..spell of grandeur...". The Point System has it flaws, unfortunately, I won't live long enough to hunt many other units as well. However, I don't spend my summers in those units, so I mentioned 76. I said it was "unfortunate", but certainly not a "Deal breaker". I have hunted Colorado 10 of the last 13 years so I am definitely looking at the opportunities that exist. Unfortunately with Social Media and YouTube it is now in high demand.

I do some summer glassing in 76 as well, just to entertain myself. Definitely some big bulls in there.

 

[SoloWilderness]

I have done the same for a long time. It is problem, so going to work to change it.

So, you are working to reduce your own opportunities to hunt every year, because you can't draw the best tags in the state? I don't love the current PP system, would rather see something like a weighted draw for the top tier units, so there is at least some chance of drawing them for anyone, but some of your ideas would hurt opportunity for everyone, so I have a hard time agreeing with them. Ask any resident hunter, of any western state, if they want to see reduced opportunity for residents, so that nonresidents can have a better chance at drawing a premium units, and you will have a hard no. There are plenty of premium units that have much lower draw requirements for cows, or later season hunts, so if people just want to hunt the unit, they can always pull one of these tags. So maybe you can't hunt an early rifle bull tag, but you can certainly hunt a 2nd to 3rd rifle bull or cow tag with far fewer points.

My big problem with some of your ideas, in particular the "burn all points on any tag" idea, is that this unfairly penalizes people who have been saving for years to have a chance to MAYBE hunt a top tier premium unit, by making them cash out their years of buy in (points) into the system for a 3rd rifle cow tag with a 5% success rate.... Just so YOU can have a better chance of drawing the premium tag sooner. Plain and simple, residents should have a better chance of drawing the best tags in their home state, the best way to ensure this is the current preference point system, which while it may seen unfair to someone who hasn't been buying into the system for years, is what those of us who have been paying in for years have accepted. Me accumulating points, as my choice, to save for a guaranteed hunt (once in my life) for a specific unit, does nothing to affect your opportunity.

I hunt 2nd choice tags (often cows) or occasionally leftovers (for very low success units - also typically cows) and kill elk every year, through hard work scouting and learning less desirable units. I rarely hunt OTC, except archery, because I do the research to find lower success units that I can succeed in consistently. I rarely see other hunters during OTC archery, except at the trailhead, because I do the work to find unpressured places, where I can find elk, and get away from people. So, OTC vs non-OTC really doesn't impact my (or YOUR) ability to find and kill elk. I kill 6 x 6 bulls in junk units, because I work hard, not because of some unfair draw system, because these are 2nd choice tags, which ANYONE, resident or non can draw at 2nd choice with NO points. I analyze the odds to find these units, again, putting in work to create opportunity. I do all this work, while quietly accumulating my points for my once every 10 years chance to be picky, and maybe shoot a 320+ bull, instead of a 260 bull.

I want everyone to have the chance to hunt elk, it's awesome, and don't want to see Colorado end up like most of the other Western states, which I would love to hunt, but will probably never be able to, other than for less than premium hunts, such as a doe whitetail, or doe antelope in Wyoming, due to how restrictive and expensive their tags are. So, as a resident, I am asking you, as a non-resident to think really hard about your concerted efforts to reduce opportunity for residents, which is what it appears you are trying to do, so that non-residents can have better odds at the best units, because there is currently absolutely NO reason you can't hunt and kill an elk on a 2nd choice or leftover tag, every single year, under the current system. It may not be a "Look at me" 340+ bull to show off on social media, but it is an opportunity, and hard work can yield results, whether it is cow meat in the freezer, or a respectable bull (which, as hard as elk hunting can be, is honestly any bull - one that I am most proud of is a tiny 3x4, the first elk I harvested with my bow - because of how hard I worked to kill that bull - years of effort to learn an OTC unit) for the wall.

 

[BarCO]

So, you are working to reduce your own opportunities to hunt every year, because you can't draw the best tags in the state? I don't love the current PP system, would rather see something like a weighted draw for the top tier units, so there is at least some chance of drawing them for anyone, but some of your ideas would hurt opportunity for everyone, so I have a hard time agreeing with them. Ask any resident hunter, of any western state, if they want to see reduced opportunity for residents, so that nonresidents can have a better chance at drawing a premium units, and you will have a hard no. There are plenty of premium units that have much lower draw requirements for cows, or later season hunts, so if people just want to hunt the unit, they can always pull one of these tags. So maybe you can't hunt an early rifle bull tag, but you can certainly hunt a 2nd to 3rd rifle bull or cow tag with far fewer points.

My big problem with some of your ideas, in particular the "burn all points on any tag" idea, is that this unfairly penalizes people who have been saving for years to have a chance to MAYBE hunt a top tier premium unit, by making them cash out their years of buy in (points) into the system for a 3rd rifle cow tag with a 5% success rate.... Just so YOU can have a better chance of drawing the premium tag sooner. Plain and simple, residents should have a better chance of drawing the best tags in their home state, the best way to ensure this is the current preference point system, which while it may seen unfair to someone who hasn't been buying into the system for years, is what those of us who have been paying in for years have accepted. Me accumulating points, as my choice, to save for a guaranteed hunt (once in my life) for a specific unit, does nothing to affect your opportunity.

I hunt 2nd choice tags (often cows) or occasionally leftovers (for very low success units - also typically cows) and kill elk every year, through hard work scouting and learning less desirable units. I rarely hunt OTC, except archery, because I do the research to find lower success units that I can succeed in consistently. I rarely see other hunters during OTC archery, except at the trailhead, because I do the work to find unpressured places, where I can find elk, and get away from people. So, OTC vs non-OTC really doesn't impact my (or YOUR) ability to find and kill elk. I kill 6 x 6 bulls in junk units, because I work hard, not because of some unfair draw system, because these are 2nd choice tags, which ANYONE, resident or non can draw at 2nd choice with NO points. I analyze the odds to find these units, again, putting in work to create opportunity. I do all this work, while quietly accumulating my points for my once every 10 years chance to be picky, and maybe shoot a 320+ bull, instead of a 260 bull.

I want everyone to have the chance to hunt elk, it's awesome, and don't want to see Colorado end up like most of the other Western states, which I would love to hunt, but will probably never be able to, other than for less than premium hunts, such as a doe whitetail, or doe antelope in Wyoming, due to how restrictive and expensive their tags are. So, as a resident, I am asking you, as a non-resident to think really hard about your concerted efforts to reduce opportunity for residents, which is what it appears you are trying to do, so that non-residents can have better odds at the best units, because there is currently absolutely NO reason you can't hunt and kill an elk on a 2nd choice or leftover tag, every single year, under the current system. It may not be a "Look at me" 340+ bull to show off on social media, but it is an opportunity, and hard work can yield results, whether it is cow meat in the freezer, or a respectable bull (which, as hard as elk hunting can be, is honestly any bull - one that I am most proud of is a tiny 3x4, the first elk I harvested with my bow - because of how hard I worked to kill that bull - years of effort to learn an OTC unit) for the wall.

I am not concerned with my ability to draw a tag, I am concerned with the overcrowding and eroding experience. I don‘t think you should be able to hunt and also collect a point. I do think if you either sat out or burned points we would have less pressure. You certainly don’t have to support it, change is hard. I am still going to put forth the effort to improve our situation. I am a Colorado resident, I have been successful in OTC as well. I have certainly seen the changes over the last 20 years or so, this is my suggestion to ease the issues and will pursue it.

 

[SoloWilderness]

I am not concerned with my ability to draw a tag, I am concerned with the overcrowding and eroding experience. I don‘t think you should be able to hunt and also collect a point. I do think if you either sat out or burned points we would have less pressure. You certainly don’t have to support it, change is hard. I am still going to put forth the effort to improve our situation. I am a Colorado resident, I have been successful in OTC as well. I have certainly seen the changes over the last 20 years or so, this is my suggestion to ease the issues and will pursue it.

I understand your point of view on this, and I agree with your view on pressure, the pressure is out of hand, during certain seasons, and in easier to access areas. In other, easy to draw, and OTC areas, there is no pressure, because the terrain is more challenging, or there are other things that make the majority of hunters overlook them. These are areas where, if I wasn't hunting elk, I would be going after deer or bear, so me sitting out an elk season wouldn't have much impact on the pressure in an area. I have yet to see more than a handful of hunters in most of the places I hunt, and those I do see stick to main trails, and so don't have an impact.

I do think we need a draw for most OTC units, with caps, to keep the pressure controlled in the units that are out of control, as I have certainly abandoned areas after the pressure gets out of hand, as it inevitably does, in all but the most remote areas. I see this as much worse in deer units, and on deer tags, than on an OTC elk hunt. Granted, this is due to CPW being generous with tags to combat CWD. Using preference points for really low quality units, that a person draws at 3rd or 4th choice just seems unreasonable, as they are hunting in an area with much lower chances of success than a person who draws a 2nd or 1st choice tag, and would probably turn their tag in rather than lose their point for the year. I don't think this would help with management in these areas, many of which have cow tags left even after the leftover draw.

So point banking, or bonus draw years MIGHT be better ways to ENCOURAGE high point holders to cash out, or at least burn some points out of the system. There have been years I wanted to hunt with a buddy, but we couldn't align our points, as I had many more, so what did we do? Hunted OTC, and kept accumulating points. It might have been nice to have the option to burn a couple points out of my bank to hunt with them, it also would have reset their points to zero, instead, they accumulated. I don't think preference points are really the cause of overcrowding, or a poorer hunting experience, over-generous OTC tags are. So changing them to a draw, making them zone specific (where they cover 4-5 units only, and force hunters to choose), or capping overall OTC tags would do much more to alleviate overcrowding than punishing those who may be only a year or two from cashing out their points and starting over. People like me, who bank points for a bucket list hunt every decade or so, aren't the cause of the pressure and poor experience, because you will probably never see me, other than my truck at a trailhead.

 

[BarCO]

I understand your point of view on this, and I agree with your view on pressure, the pressure is out of hand, during certain seasons, and in easier to access areas. In other, easy to draw, and OTC areas, there is no pressure, because the terrain is more challenging, or there are other things that make the majority of hunters overlook them. These are areas where, if I wasn't hunting elk, I would be going after deer or bear, so me sitting out an elk season wouldn't have much impact on the pressure in an area. I have yet to see more than a handful of hunters in most of the places I hunt, and those I do see stick to main trails, and so don't have an impact.

I do think we need a draw for most OTC units, with caps, to keep the pressure controlled in the units that are out of control, as I have certainly abandoned areas after the pressure gets out of hand, as it inevitably does, in all but the most remote areas. I see this as much worse in deer units, and on deer tags, than on an OTC elk hunt. Granted, this is due to CPW being generous with tags to combat CWD. Using preference points for really low quality units, that a person draws at 3rd or 4th choice just seems unreasonable, as they are hunting in an area with much lower chances of success than a person who draws a 2nd or 1st choice tag, and would probably turn their tag in rather than lose their point for the year. I don't think this would help with management in these areas, many of which have cow tags left even after the leftover draw.

So point banking, or bonus draw years might be better ways to encourage high point holders to cash out. I don't think preference points are really the cause of overcrowding, or a poorer hunting experience, over-generous OTC tags are. So changing them to a draw, making them zone specific (where they cover 4-5 units only, and force hunters to choose), or capping overall OTC tags would do much more to alleviate overcrowding than punishing those who may be only a year or two from cashing out their points and starting over. People like me, who bank points for a bucket list hunt every decade or so, aren't the cause of the pressure and poor experience, because you will probably never see me, other than my truck at a trailhead.

Yes , I only see other hunters because I never leave the trail or go more than a few hundred yards in…..

 

[MallardSX2]

Point banking is NOT the solution to the problem. It’s is exactly the OPPOSITE of what needs to happen.

 

[Phaseolus]

They should go every unit and season draw and require min 3 PP (regardless of residency to have a name in the hat just like sheep/moose/goat).

They should go 80/20 on residency tag break down and any tag left over should be available OTC but at NR price.

I’ve got 20 moose points and can’t draw a fricking moose, I wouldn’t want to see elk hunting go the same route.

 

[Phaseolus]

Man, this argument is getting old, y'all are way over rating the need for OTC NR money. CPW is RAKING in money from OHV permits, fishing licenses, camping/access fees, fees from outfitters (hunting and otherwise) money from grants, money from the state, money from the feds, plus they'll still sell plenty of NR tags. LOL, they'll be FINE... Everyone will be better off without the flood of NR OTC hunters. Hope they don't chicken out on this.

CP certainly is but not necessarily the W part. They don’t share budgets.

 

[Phaseolus]

My statement applies to all units, OTC and draw. For all bull elk licenses sold, 82% of the funding comes from NR. You're not familiar with how government entities operate if you think they'll be willing to forego the majority of a major source of revenue.

I think we should restrict NR hunting tags and make up for that budget shortfall by having draw permits for summer use in Colorado’s southern mountains. Texans would only be able to come every other year at best.

 

[Jimss]

One of the biggest benefits to all draw for elk is the cpw will finally be able to manage hunter and elk population numbers. This is impossible with otc,

When Colo deer went to all draw the quality of bucks and experience almost immediately increased. There are still deer units that can be drawn every year with very few pref pts.

The other nice thing about all draw elk is there will suddenly be less hunting pressure on public land if tags are reduced. Everyone knows that elk head to private in otc units once archery elk season starts. The cpw may actually be able to manage hunting pressure and possibly resolve public/private land issues.

 

[SoloWilderness]

Yes , I only see other hunters because I never leave the trail or go more than a few hundred yards in…..

Not what I meant... But my point is, if there is heavy pressure in a particular area, doesn't mean every easy to draw tag is the same. My favorite unit has certain trailheads and drainages that are absolutely swamped with people, and those people tend to stick to the main trails, and not go more than a few miles in. Bushwack up a ridge line to a hidden basin, and those people disappear.

 

[Coveyleader]

I hope nothing happens until it is thought out.

Follow something similar to WY with some adjustments here and there and you could have a pretty good system.


This slow move on making a group of units limited here and there is not helping, and is far from being well thought out.

 

[Poser]

I think we should restrict NR hunting tags and make up for that budget shortfall by having draw permits for summer use in Colorado’s southern mountains. Texans would only be able to come every other year at best.

I’d settle for some law enforcement presence on the popular ORV routes.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Lil-Rokslider]

I realize that no man knows the future, but putting aside what everyone's preferences/ solutions are, what do you think Colorado is actually going to do? In other words, based on the discussions taking place and what is realistic, what will the Colorado application and draw actually look like in 5, 10, and 20 years?

 

[BarCO]

I’d settle for some law enforcement presence on the popular ORV routes.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Totally if they enforced and ticketed illegal behavior on trails with e-bikes, at, and sxs on non motorized trails they would more than cover the shortfall.

 

[BarCO]

I realize that no man knows the future, but putting aside what everyone's preferences/ solutions are, what do you think Colorado is actually going to do? In other words, based on the discussions taking place and what is realistic, what will the Colorado application and draw actually look like in 5, 10, and 20 years?

I think they will monetize non-hunting usage and start to reduce hunting opportunities as the area becomes more crowded.

 

[cnelk]

I realize that no man knows the future, but putting aside what everyone's preferences/ solutions are, what do you think Colorado is actually going to do? In other words, based on the discussions taking place and what is realistic, what will the Colorado application and draw actually look like in 5, 10, and 20 years?

Well… here are the resumes of the Wildlife Commission…

Based on them… I think we are doomed.

Colorado Parks and Wildlife

Colorado Parks and Wildlife is a nationally recognized leader in conservation, outdoor recreation and wildlife management. The agency manages 42 state parks, all of Colorado's wildlife, more than 300 state wildlife areas and a host of recreational programs. CPW issues hunting and fishing...

cpw.state.co.us

 

[Pony Soldier]

When I was going to school in wildlife management, we were told that the correct way to manage was to have limited dtaw on everything. However I believe the present management is for budgets not for game.

I don't think I could be attracted to Colorado. Montana is bad enough.