Corner Crossing: Public Wins!

[elkhunter505]

I wouldn't call it impossible. I think a 12' high fence that goes a short distance only on the corner of the property would be pretty obvious intent. If they fence the entire place then it would be hard to prove, but the opposite corner would have to do the same in order to enclose it. Not everybody has deep pockets.

I also think that the majority of landowners that are against this are people that are benefitting from the hunting portion of it, not people that are running cattle operations. That makes me think that as long as we respect their private land and the rules that many of these places will be easily accessed without much fuss. Turner, Wilkes, Iron Bar, etc. now that’s a different story about how much of a fight and mess it is going to be. Owners are constantly locking gates that are for public access in certain areas so I see this being a similar gridlock scenario in some places. If we are smart, we should talk to our land management agencies and get out ahead of it by surveying corners and offering to pay for fence modification or other solutions that can make it easier and more interpretable for everyone.

 

[ScreamingPotato]

I also think that the majority of landowners that are against this are people that are benefitting from the hunting portion of it, not people that are running cattle operations. That makes me think that as long as we respect their private land and the rules that many of these places will be easily accessed without much fuss. Turner, Wilkes, Iron Bar, etc. now that’s a different story about how much of a fight and mess it is going to be. Owners are constantly locking gates that are for public access in certain areas so I see this being a similar gridlock scenario in some places. If we are smart, we should talk to our land management agencies and get out ahead of it by surveying corners and offering to pay for fence modification or other solutions that can make it easier and more interpretable for everyone.

Absolutely, just properly marked corners would go a long way. Just for myself personally it would give me a lot of confidence to be able to see the survey peg and step over it as opposed to guessing based on maps.

 

[fatlander]

Absolutely, just properly marked corners would go a long way. Just for myself personally it would give me a lot of confidence to be able to see the survey peg and step over it as opposed to guessing based on maps.

Sounds like a lot of REASONABLE DOUBT there without a survey peg. That’s a good thing for the public.

The state has to prove you trespassed beyond a reasonable doubt. No peg, they have nothing more than the map you used.


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[pods8 (Rugged Stitching)]

If we are smart, we should talk to our land management agencies and get out ahead of it by surveying corners and offering to pay for fence modification or other solutions that can make it easier and more interpretable for everyone.

Project 1: survey out every corner around Fred's place and construct foot bridges and some flagging of the public property boarder leading into the corner (with BLM approval) making it unquestionable if you touched his land as long as you walked that bridge from BLM to BLM.

Countersue the shit outta Fred if he or his minions impede in any manner.

Edit to add, the legal fund that paid for the defense of these hunters should counter sue Fred as it is for recouping legal fees. That would go a long way towards funding these projects and defense of future issues.

 

[elkhunter505]

Project 1: survey out every corner around Fred's place and construct foot bridges and some flagging of the public property boarder leading into the corner (with BLM approval) making it unquestionable if you touched his land as long as you walked that bridge from BLM to BLM.

Countersue the shit outta Fred if he or his minions impede in any manner.

I really think we could make this even better by working those fences into passages with gates in the private fences. Makes it easier for us and wildlife to cross, and makes it easier for ranchers to move their cattle through a chute from one parcel to the next. Seems like a win win rather than demonizing them even though we know some people, like Fred, are garbage and just trying to hoard a public resource for themselves. If I had access to pronghorn or mule deer migration data in checkerboard areas, I would bet those types of chutes would vastly improve their ability to move across the landscape.

 

[pods8 (Rugged Stitching)]

I really think we could make this even better by working those fences into passages with gates in the private fences. Makes it easier for us and wildlife to cross, and makes it easier for ranchers to move their cattle through a chute from one parcel to the next. Seems like a win win rather than demonizing them even though we know some people, like Fred, are garbage and just trying to hoard a public resource for themselves. If I had access to pronghorn or mule deer migration data in checkerboard areas, I would bet those types of chutes would vastly improve their ability to move across the landscape.

I would speculate far more of these corners in the major checker board areas are unfenced than fenced, hence my comment on the foot bridge versus a fence chute. That has been my experience wandering around WY, a lack of fences and boundaries in the heart of the checker board. When there are fences for one reason or another they aren't necessarily at a boundary. I know one area that became public and the private fence corner was short of the boundary and the owner would sit there busting folks who didn't realize it and walked on his property assuming the fence was the corner rather than it being 50' further (or whatever it was). But I am by no means claiming to be the expert.

 

[Fujicon]

Nice to see dickheads get their cumuppance.

 

[ScreamingPotato]

Project 1: survey out every corner around Fred's place and construct foot bridges and some flagging of the public property boarder leading into the corner (with BLM approval) making it unquestionable if you touched his land as long as you walked that bridge from BLM to BLM.

Countersue the shit outta Fred if he or his minions impede in any manner.

Edit to add, the legal fund that paid for the defense of these hunters should counter sue Fred as it is for recouping legal fees. That would go a long way towards funding these projects and defense of future issues.

I like this idea. The more aggressively they impede the more clear the public needs to make it.

 

[pods8 (Rugged Stitching)]

I like this idea. The more aggressively they impede the more clear the public needs to make it.

I mean he tried to make an example out of these hunters and it cost a lot of legal fees. It turns out all levels of courts so far have determined they were not trespassing and in fact he was harassing and impeding public access. Seems ripe to counter sue him for recouping all legal fees to the legal fund, "emotional distress" on the hunters themselves, etc. and make an example out of him instead. Have the fund reloaded incase future land owners harass legal entry.

I'm sure the idea has already crossed the minds of the legal team and they'll do what they think is most strategic. I'm just arm chair commentating.

 

[drdrop]

I mean he tried to make an example out of these hunters and it cost a lot of legal fees. It turns out all levels of courts so far have determined they were not trespassing and in fact he was harassing and impeding public access. Seems ripe to counter sue him for recouping all legal fees to the legal fund, "emotional distress" on the hunters themselves, etc. and make an example out of him instead. Have the fund reloaded incase future land owners harass legal entry.

I'm sure the idea has already crossed the minds of the legal team and they'll do what they think is most strategic. I'm just arm chair commentating.

As I understand it, the hunters' attorney Ryan Semerad charged WY BHA way below market rate because it was hard to raise funds. He will now be able to recoup his pay from Eshelman as a counter claim. Hopefully the Missouri Four can get in on that gravy train too! That must have been a stressful few years for them.

 

[pods8 (Rugged Stitching)]

As I understand it, the hunters' attorney Ryan Semerad charged WY BHA way below market rate because it was hard to raise funds. He will now be able to recoup his pay from Eshelman as a counter claim. Hopefully the Missouri Four can get in on that gravy train too! That must have been a stressful few years for them.

Hope he does. I wouldn't call it a gravy train as much as true compensation for having to deal with an asshole trying to bully people.

 

[Billinsd]

I’m planning to corner cross in every state I hunt, period. I might even take my seatbelt off on the dirt two-track on my way to do it.

You gotta take a selfie or it doesn't count!!

 

[Billinsd]

There's several corners of forest land in San Diego county, that touch private and you must literally step over that marker with one boot, not two.
Here is a story, great spot, It's riparian and loaded with turkeys and poison oak, extremely brushy, and completely surrounded by private land. I saw a group of hunters, the Sherrif, adjacent land owner, Vista Irrigation security, Game Warden and a dead Jake. I parked a hundred yards down the road and walked over and talked to the adjacent land owner and Vista guy. What happened I ask the land owner and Vista guy? Land owner said those guys trespassed on my private land!! I said, what do you mean, show me on my map? And he did he pointed to a letter on the map and said those guys were sitting right there on my property. I asked how do you know? This was befores GPS units had maps. I said there are no fences and it's so brushy how can you pin point a precise spot? He said he just knew where they were precisely, because he had spent a lot of time in there. I asked, do the hunters agree they were where you said they are? He said, no they said they were not on my land. The spot according to land owner was 50 yards into his property. I said was the Warden with you when you found them? He said no. There was no fence or boundary marker.

I have no idea who was telling the truth and either the hunters or land owners were wrong. Only way to prove 100% would have been to make hunters sit where they were, or mark with paint where they were, bring out the Warden and a licensed surveyor to plot their exact location.

My gut said the land owner was wrong after talking with him. Also, some property owners, could have been the same guys private land owner, different guys posted public land as private about 300 yards away on a cross road. I saw them and they told me they posted the signs and besides there are no turkeys here, we know we live here. Later on the Forest Circus removed the posted signs. Yea!!!

 

[Billinsd]

Another time near there I was on a tiny edge of forest land, that I had to spend almost 2 hours on my hands and knees at times to get to this tiny forest meadow. There was a private dirt road, of course I didn't take that. I am foreshadowing..... : )
So, I've thread a needle to get to this place and after a couple hours right when I got a Tom to respond a game Warden walks up from around a bush and says HI!!! I'm startled and flustered and anxious. He's very nice and calm and checks me out. And he says I've been watching you for two hours, is that your truck on the Road. I say yes. He says good, I can put a face to the truck!! He says you know you walked RIGHT ALONG THE EDGE OF THE PROPERTLY LINE. He said he swore I was going to step off ONE foot and and he would have GOT ME! HE SAYS. He says you were really looking at that tree and looking around and I almost got you, like he is really disappointed!!! So, I said I want to see the exact boundary to make sure I didn't cross it. He said I came within inches of a ticket. He smiled and walked away. I did go back a couple times, but it was too much of a hassle.

 

[Billinsd]

My two stories illustrate what will happen to a degree at these corner crossing that didn't have fences or visable boundaries and the terrain is steep and the vegetation thick!! It's especially difficult getting back to that tiny survey post or marker without straying off if there aren't fences or marked out boundaries. I bet some a hole land owners will wrongfully accuse some hunters of trespassing and some hunters will stray off accidently and trespass, he said she said. A small few will intentionally trespass. My advise is to not put a single foot onto private property and be prepared to get hassled and watched coming and going from the bushes. When you ride of the edge, it's important to understand the penalties.

 

[realunlucky]

My two stories illustrate what will happen to a degree at these corner crossing that didn't have fences or visable boundaries and the terrain is steep and the vegetation thick!! It's especially difficult getting back to that tiny survey post or marker without straying off if there aren't fences or marked out boundaries. I bet some a hole land owners will wrongfully accuse some hunters of trespassing and some hunters will stray off accidently and trespass, he said she said. A small few will intentionally trespass. My advise is to not put a single foot onto private property and be prepared to get hassled and watched coming and going from the bushes. When you ride of the edge, it's important to understand the penalties.

Burden of proof falls on the land owners claim.

I'd personally not say anything and do what I thought was legal.

Which by the way is exactly how we got to this point except now with the new ruling they are even less likely to roll the dice and take it to court.

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[Billinsd]

Burden of proof falls on the land owners claim.

I'd personally not say anything and do what I thought was legal.

Which by the way is exactly how we got to this point except now with the new ruling they are even less likely to roll the dice and take it to court.

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What if you did what you thought was legal and land owner ran up to you claiming you were trespassing? What if you were walking back to that single point where the public land corner is and there are no landmarks, it's brushy, there are no fencelines or property line markers? You can do that now with ONX, and if someone stops you, you point to your ONX. But what if they say, you strayed off walking into that tiny corner? Burden of proof is probably the same in San Diego County... Thanks!! The danger is a property owner could be a dick and say you are on private property and you aren't. Or the property owner's belief of the propert edge is wrong. There is a big risk in cutting it really close, hunting next to private property is the lesson! I stopped cutting it close and steered very, very clear of private property. Especially, where the boundaries are not clearly marked and interpretation is difficult.

 

[Billinsd]

Burden of proof falls on the land owners

That makes sense, and I figured the land owner would carry a lot of weight. Really great to know that. Thank you! What if the landowner is wrong or lies. Most probably won't, I would hope. He could say "I watched you walking in to the corner and you strayed off 20 feet." You would get pinched, right? I would be extremely cautious, and leary crossing corners, especially where the land owners hate or don't want hunters going. Like the specific spot these guys got popped. Who is going to cross that corner first now? It would NEVER be me, lol.

 

[fatlander]

That makes sense, and I figured the land owner would carry a lot of weight. Really great to know that. Thank you! What if the landowner is wrong or lies. Most probably won't, I would hope. He could say "I watched you walking in to the corner and you strayed off 20 feet." You would get pinched, right? I would be extremely cautious, and leary crossing corners, especially where the land owners hate or don't want hunters going. Like the specific spot these guys got popped. Who is going to cross that corner first now? It would NEVER be me, lol.

That’s going to fall apart in court. The only way landowners are going to win is to mark their private property very clearly and then have some other documentation beyond “I saw the plaintiff on my land”.

The burden of proof was so low with the airspace crap before it was an easy win. County attorneys hate nothing more than losing. They’re not taking weak sauce to court.

And back to my first point; if they mark their land very well, the public will have no reason to get on it. Everyone wins.


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[Billinsd]

That’s going to fall apart in court. The only way landowners are going to win is to mark their private property very clearly and then have some other documentation beyond “I saw the plaintiff on my land”.

The burden of proof was so low with the airspace crap before it was an easy win. County attorneys hate nothing more than losing.

I would hope that would fall apart in court. My first example in San Diego was a corner touching the Right of Way along a highway. The tip of that corner was exposed and a big, shiny metal marker had been installed. And a big, bright survey string line going one way and another going the other for 30 yards each way. Beyond that the private property was not properly marked along the boundary. Looking into the private property with my binos, I saw a couple randomly placed private property signs, deep, deep within the private property. I would imagine it's very different, state to state and county to county. If you just hunt one state, it's easier. Of course it's ALWAYS safer to error far on the side of caution. In North Dakota it's legal to hunt private property, as long as it's not marked by a physical sign, or electronically. Someone told me if there is a wee teeny wennie scrap of paper on a pole with a rectangle wood at the top of the pole is trespassing!!! Reading facebook people said that if there are several blocks of private property owned by the same person and just ONE of them is marked, just a teeny bit, you can get a ticket. Another thing too, if there is a rectangle sign on a post, that might of could have at some time had a no trespassing sign, that is illegal too. It's not a teeny weeny piece of paper required. So, in ND tresspassing is legal, however, the land owner could just have one post with a rectangle on it, surrounded by lots of other plots owned by land owner with no posts and bare wood rectangles. There are other things too regarding you can't leave decoys out over night. To me, it it's very unpleasant. I haven't really done it myself, either and it feels really weird. Similar for SD and road hunting. It's legal, but there are LOTS of restrictions and it feels wrong and it's not fun, so that's easy, I don't do it.