Copper Ammo Recomendations

[Weber]

They all work. Shoot the one that’s most accurate.

Clearly didn't read my post.

 

[Weber]

Hey, I've shot one antelope buck and one whitetail with these bullets so far. The Antelope with Controlled Chaos and the Whitetail with the DRT.

Have posted photos and reports of bullet performance here:

Best Mono Bullet for Hunting/Effective Kills

I’m shooting the same velocity as the OP in my 6.5, also a 124 Hammer Hunter. No issues for me with respect to speed.

rokslide.com

Thanks for posting. Will follow that thread. Found some data that said the cx's will expand at 1800. Going to test them against the ttsx's this year. Will try to capture some data on longer range/lower velocity impacts I'm expecting.

I have some Controlled Chaos I will also test out of a shorter barrel. Supposedly it'll open as low as 1500 so will be good out to 250-275 yards

Opted out of the DRT. Heard back from them on MOV but I don't want a grenade due to meat loss, fragments in meat, and the devastation of those accidental shoulder hits

 

[SDHNTR]

Clearly didn't read my post.

I sure did, every word.

Shoot the one that’s most accurate.

 

[Weber]

I sure did, every word.

Shoot the one that’s most accurate.

Doesnt solve the problem. Jog on guy

 

[SDHNTR]

Doesnt solve the problem. Jog on guy

Because there isn’t a problem. Shoot the one that is most accurate so you can put it where it needs to go. Do that and the same result will occur for all of your choices.

 

[Weber]

Because there isn’t a problem. Shoot the one that is most accurate so you can put it where it needs to go. Do that and the same result will occur for all of your choices.

No. It won't. Minimum opening velocities are a thing.

Appreciate you trying to help but as you eloquently put it:

"There are no absolutes in the field. There’s value in both sides of an argument."

A pencil hole through game in the last hours of daylight at 300 yds equals hours searching for game i likely will not find due to the terrain and animal I'm shooting. I don't want to shoot a lead bullet for my own reasons. Which means I must either change caliber, which I do not wish to do for my own reasons. Or I must ensure the bullet I'm using will open at these ranges, reliably, whilst also being accurate. A reduced MOV = longer range capability.

Barring CNS shots which would be irresponsible in these shooting conditions it does matter, regardless of accuracy, what the MOV of these bullets are, outside of maybe the DRT rounds due to their fragmented nature

 

[SDHNTR]

No. It won't. Minimum opening velocities are a thing.

Appreciate you trying to help but as you eloquently put it:

"There are no absolutes in the field. There’s value in both sides of an argument."

A pencil hole through game in the last hours of daylight at 300 yds equals hours searching for game i likely will not find due to the terrain and animal I'm shooting. I don't want to shoot a lead bullet for my own reasons. Which means I must either change caliber, which I do not wish to do for my own reasons. Or I must ensure the bullet I'm using will open at these ranges, reliably, whilst also being accurate. A reduced MOV = longer range capability.

Barring CNS shots which would be irresponsible in these shooting conditions it does matter, regardless of accuracy, what the MOV of these bullets are, outside of maybe the DRT rounds due to their fragmented nature

Yes, minimum velocities are a thing, but it’s not alchemy, it’s common sense. I don’t think it’s a complex matter, shoot a faster cartridge, or limit range. Those are the only practical choices. There aren’t enough differences in mono bullet construction (despite their attempts at marketing) to warrant treating any of them any differently.

 

[Weber]

Yes, minimum velocities are a thing, but it’s not alchemy, it’s common sense. I don’t think it’s a complex matter, shoot a faster cartridge, or limit range. Those are the only practical choices. There aren’t enough differences in mono bullet construction (despite their attempts at marketing) to warrant treating any of them any differently.

Ballistics tests say otherwise.

I guess in part "shoot a faster cartridge" isn't acceptable for my parameters but shooting a faster factory load (Superformance) or a lower grain that is still effective on game (50gr potentially) is. Which this thread is intended to help me find. And if MOV is achieved at lower velocities it solves the same problem.

It seems you disagree with the idea of lower MOV's. Which is fair, but I don't accept that as a valid argument based on data collected. If 2 rounds both fly at 3000 fps, but one opens at 500 fps lower (reliably and accurately as you point out) it has increased its effective range 200 yards, which is a significant change and does solve my problem. Now you may be right about MOV not differing much amongst them, but SO FAR (and willing to be proven wrong) that is not what I'm finding. TBD I suppose. But just like my other thread you've dropped a one liner on, I'm collecting data to determine that, not taking a dude on their internets word for it and looking no deeper.

I have specific requirements and use cases. What you're proposing doesn't solve them. I do appreciate what you're trying to convey but please understand that its not adding anything useful to the discussion. But please do share if you have data to offer to the discussion. Especially in 223/308 loads at lower velocities/further ranges.

 

[SDHNTR]

Well, all I can tell you is with my .223 and my .308, which also both have 18” bbls making them even slower, I just don’t take long shots. I shoot the mono that is most accurate in each, 62 TTSX and 154 HHT, respectively.

If I want to take a longer shot with a mono, I shoot something with more juice and out comes the 6.5 prc, for example. I don’t look to the bullet to solve the “problem” because there isn’t enough meaningful difference in their construction to matter much. Assuming same accuracy, Mono Bullet A vs Mono Bullet B, isn’t going to move the needle to the point that it makes a critter any more or less dead. 200 fps less “MOV” isn’t enough to matter IMO, and I just don’t buy that 500 less even exists.

It’s seems to me the nature of this post is that you are trying to find ways to jam that proverbial square peg into the round hole. Methinks, instead, use a different peg. And if that means one “peg” must be a mono, then the only other “peg” you have to work with is a faster cartridge.

Or accept the inherent limitations in play.

 

[Ringbill27]

Well, all I can tell you is with my .223 and my .308, which also both have 18” bbls making them even slower, I just don’t take long shots. I shoot the mono that is most accurate in each, 62 TTSX and 154 HHT, respectively.

If I want to take a longer shot with a mono, I shoot something with more juice and out comes the 6.5 prc, for example. I don’t look to the bullet to solve the “problem” because there isn’t enough meaningful difference in their construction to matter much. Assuming same accuracy, Mono Bullet A vs Mono Bullet B, isn’t going to move the needle to the point that it makes a critter any more or less dead. 200 fps less “MOV” isn’t enough to matter IMO, and I just don’t buy that 500 less even exists.

It’s seems to me the nature of this post is that you are trying to find ways to jam that proverbial square peg into the round hole. Methinks, instead, use a different peg. And if that means one “peg” must be a mono, then the only other “peg” you have to work with is a faster cartridge.

Or accept the inherent limitations in play.

Well said.

 

[Weber]

Well, all I can tell you is with my .223 and my .308, which also both have 18” bbls making them even slower, I just don’t take long shots. I shoot the mono that is most accurate in each, 62 TTSX and 154 HHT, respectively.

If I want to take a longer shot with a mono, I shoot something with more juice and out comes the 6.5 prc, for example. I don’t look to the bullet to solve the “problem” because there isn’t enough meaningful difference in their construction to matter much. Assuming same accuracy, Mono Bullet A vs Mono Bullet B, isn’t going to move the needle to the point that it makes a critter any more or less dead. 200 fps less “MOV” isn’t enough to matter IMO, and I just don’t buy that 500 less even exists.

It’s seems to me the nature of this post is that you are trying to find ways to jam that proverbial square peg into the round hole. Methinks, instead, use a different peg. And if that means one “peg” must be a mono, then the only other “peg” you have to work with is a faster cartridge.

Or accept the inherent limitations in play.

cool. That doesn't fit my use case but glad it's working for you. Thanks for the input and best wishes to you. The data supports a 200-500fps difference which does in fact make a difference in range. 75-200 yds difference, which for me is precisely what I want

Back to on topic discussion. Will post findings here in a couple of weeks.

 

[SDHNTR]

cool. That doesn't fit my use case. Thanks for the input and best wishes to you. The data supports a 200-500fps difference which does in fact make a difference in range. 75-200 yds difference, which for me is precisely what I want

Back to on topic discussion. Will post findings here in a couple of weeks.

What "data"? I'm genuinely curious. All I've ever seen is marketing. And my own experience of hundreds of animals. Dead is dead.

 

[z987k]

Thanks for posting. Will follow that thread. Found some data that said the cx's will expand at 1800. Going to test them against the ttsx's this year. Will try to capture some data on longer range/lower velocity impacts I'm expecting.

I have some Controlled Chaos I will also test out of a shorter barrel. Supposedly it'll open as low as 1500 so will be good out to 250-275 yards

Opted out of the DRT. Heard back from them on MOV but I don't want a grenade due to meat loss, fragments in meat, and the devastation of those accidental shoulder hit

If you look at what the manufacturers claim for minimum velocity it's usually to either get bullet diameter opening or just any opening.
I think if you look at these shot into Ballistics gel at the lower velocities you'll find just about all of them are full of crap regarding MOV for what people actually expect from a hunting bullet.
The fracturing bullets tend to work a little better at lower velocities than expanding, but I wouldn't actually trust that to happen. Maybe with the exception of Maker, those very clearly open up where he says they will and he's got the gel to prove it... mostly subsonic.
Keep all your mono impacts above 2000fps and preferably more.

 

[z987k]

cool. That doesn't fit my use case but glad it's working for you. Thanks for the input and best wishes to you. The data supports a 200-500fps difference which does in fact make a difference in range. 75-200 yds difference, which for me is precisely what I want

Back to on topic discussion. Will post findings here in a couple of weeks.

Again those mov numbers just don't hold up when tested. The best you can do with a small cartridge that is limiting muzzle velocity is to pick a mono with a higher bc.
Apex and McGuire have some of the best.
And it is that much higher than a hammer or a ttsx that you'll pick up a lot of yards to that MOV.

 

[SDHNTR]

If you look at what the manufacturers claim for minimum velocity it's usually to either get bullet diameter opening or just any opening.
I think if you look at these shot into Ballistics gel at the lower velocities you'll find just about all of them are full of crap regarding MOV for what people actually expect from a hunting bullet.
The fracturing bullets tend to work a little better at lower velocities than expanding, but I wouldn't actually trust that to happen.
Keep all your mono impacts above 2000fps and preferably more.

Bingo!