Consistent flyers in 5-round group

[AM_Hunter]

I'm working on load development for my 300 PRC and getting 2 fliers out of my 5 round group and trying to make sense of it. Shots 1-2 stack, then shot 3 flies high left, then shot 4 stacks, and shot 5 goes low left. I don't think its a barrel heating issue since 3 flies and 4 stacks again. I'm leaning towards either me jumping/flinching or scope issue. The two groups in the photo below are at different grain values and different distances from lands as noted on the cardboard. Am I right to assume this is either a flinching issue or a scope issue? Or could some kind of variance in the loads cause this?

All screws have been properly checked and torqued as well so I dont believe it is an issue with that. Rifle is a Christensen MPR with a Vortex Strike Eagle 5-25. I know I know not the best combo when it comes to CS and QC so theres definite possibility of it being the rifle and/or scope but Id like to eliminate some of the cheaper possibilities before I move to swapping more expensive components.

I got 10 more rounds of each load plus 5 factory Hornady 225s to test next time I get to the range but I'm in between hunts and bored. If the Hornady's send a flier then ill know its a scope issue. If they group well and the reloads send fliers then ill know its either a load issue or a me issue.

Should note this is NOT my main hunting rifle.

 

[Vern400]

Question.
Within a five shot group, are you coming off the gun? I purposely come off the gun, or even get up and walk around, then sit back down when I want to throw a flyer. When I can't throw a flyer, short of just being stupid, I know I've got a good load. If you stay on the gun and work the bolt with your right hand without letting go with your left.... Does the group change? I've had minor POI changes occur due to using a very hard front rest, or having it get cold and go from a t-shirt to a poofy Carhartt jacket.

Stay on the gun and pull it in snug the same for every shot. Does it change anything? It could be a scope problem, or the action could be slipping in the stock even if it's probably torqued. But some guns, particularly light ones are really picky about how you hold them, and especially with heavy recoiling cartridges.

033 and 043. Tell me those aren't group sizes.

 

[AM_Hunter]

Question.
Within a five shot group, are you coming off the gun? I purposely come off the gun, or even get up and walk around, then sit back down when I want to throw a flyer. When I can't throw a flyer, short of just being stupid, I know I've got a good load. If you stay on the gun and work the bolt with your right hand without letting go with your left.... Does the group change? I've had minor POI changes occur due to using a very hard front rest, or having it get cold and go from a t-shirt to a poofy Carhartt jacket.

Stay on the gun and pull it in snug the same for every shot. Does it change anything? It could be a scope problem, or the action could be slipping in the stock even if it's probably torqued. But some guns, particularly light ones are really picky about how you hold them, and especially with heavy recoiling cartridges.

033 and 043. Tell me those aren't group sizes.

I typically dont come off the gun when I shoot groups, at least not fully. Right hand works the bolt and loads a new round from my ammo box, I usually single feed when im testing loads. Left hand stays snug under my shoulder manipulating my rear bag. I'm fairly consistent with my shooting process so I do not believe the fliers are due to changes in my body position or unknown pressures on the gun.

I wish those were the group sizes lol, thats the distance off the lands the load was at. 79gr at .043" off the lands and 80gr at .033" off the lands.

 

[ResearchinStuff]

 

[Q_Sertorius]

Try waiting 15 minutes between your 3-shot groups (with the action open).

Put three live rounds in your pocket along with two snap caps. Don’t look when you load the rifle. You’ll find out whether you are anticipating the recoil.

 

[AM_Hunter]

Try waiting 15 minutes between your 3-shot groups (with the action open).

Put three live rounds in your pocket along with two snap caps. Don’t look when you load the rifle. You’ll find out whether you are anticipating the recoil.

For waiting 15 minutes between 3-round groups are you saying to shoot two 3-round groups, with 15 minutes in between, as opposed to one 5-round group?

 

[justin davis]

I have this often with Hornady bullets. I’ll get great groups and random flyers. And don’t when shooting bergers.. sometimes I think certain bullets have flyers.

 

[PNWGATOR]

There are no such thing as fliers.

Rifles don’t shoot to a point, but rather to a cone. You’re simply filling in the cone with each subsequent shot.

Shoot a minimum of a ten round group, better yet, twenty rounds and even better than that a thirty round group. Adjust to the center of ALL arounds fired. Fire another ten round group to confirm POI/POA, slip your turrets, trajectory validate and go forth and focus on your field shooting.

 

[AM_Hunter]

I have this often with Hornady bullets. I’ll get great groups and random flyers. And don’t when shooting bergers.. sometimes I think certain bullets have flyers.

My reloads have been with barnes 190gr LRXs, ive been trying to keep it lead free in case I needed a backup rifle for CA however I may switch it over to Sierra 195gr TMK

 

[AM_Hunter]

There are no such thing as fliers.

Rifles don’t shoot to a point, but rather to a cone. You’re simply filling in the cone with each subsequent shot.

Shoot a minimum of a ten round group, better yet, twenty rounds and even better than that a thirty round group. Adjust to the center of ALL arounds fired. Fire another ten round group to confirm POI/POA, slip your turrets, trajectory validate and go forth and focus on your field shooting.

I can understand this when talking about confirm a solid zero, confirming group size, building dope, and shooting once you have a final load but are you recommending this for load testing and finding a load?

 

[PNWGATOR]

I can understand this when talking about confirm a solid zero, confirming group size, building dope, and shooting once you have a final load but are you recommending this for load testing and finding a load?

Thread 'Painless load development (mine)'

Oct 25, 2021

I have had multiple people ask me to lay out how I do load development being that what I do is different. Since Shaen @Shooter71 just rebarreled a Tikka 595 in 6XC I thought it would be easy to show how I do it. It’s a Master Sporter with a T3 lite profiled 20” barrel- keep in mind it is a T3 LITE barrel. So by conventional “wisdom” it should be more picky and less accurate than a heavy barrel. His work is shoddy (), but I bet I can overcome it.

The rifle-


First was @Unknown Munitions factory load with 105gr Berger Hybrids. 5 rounds to zero, 5 for a...

• Formidilosus
• Replies: 1,152
• Forum: Reloading

• 

 

[BBob]

I'm leaning towards either me jumping/flinching

You are shooting a largish magnum and you might not be good at it.

For the last month or so I’ve been shooting big boomers a lot and that has reinforced my opinion that as you go up in cartridge size they get harder and harder to shoot accurately or should I say shoot consistently accurate? All of your gun handling mistakes are magnified. Swapping to a smaller cartridge after shooting a boomer for awhile makes it feel downright easy.

A fun fact (not): Sitting here writing the above I am suffering from another concussion headache after shooting a very large braked boomer all day yesterday. Seems to happen every time I do that. Small caliber suppressed is a much better way

 

[taskswap]

Can you talk more about your shooting setup? Table, bags, chair/prone, how you hold, are you a "exhale and fire when your breath is half out" kind of person or what? Perhaps there's a subtle detail in your routine that's changing that you haven't considered until now?

Shoot a 6-round group and see if your 5-shot pattern repeats when you know there's one more round coming.

 

[Q_Sertorius]

For waiting 15 minutes between 3-round groups are you saying to shoot two 3-round groups, with 15 minutes in between, as opposed to one 5-round group?

Yes, I am suggesting that you shoot multiple 3-round groups until you have a statistically significant sample size.

I suspect you are developing a flinch. Giving yourself a break can help with the flinching. If I am shooting a rifle with heavy recoil, I will sometimes shoot my .22 LR in between sessions. That is also why I recommend the snap caps.

If your barrel is really light and/or you have a lightweight suppressor with no cover, it is possible you are getting some mirage.

 

[Q_Sertorius]

I can understand this when talking about confirm a solid zero, confirming group size, building dope, and shooting once you have a final load but are you recommending this for load testing and finding a load?

For load development, I follow a method similar to Form’s which was already linked. Making small changes with small sample sizes is ultimately an inefficient method for developing a load.

 

[AM_Hunter]

You are shooting a largish magnum and you might not be good at it.

For the last month or so I’ve been shooting big boomers a lot and that has reinforced my opinion that as you go up in cartridge size they get harder and harder to shoot accurately or should I say shoot consistently accurate? All of your gun handling mistakes are magnified. Swapping to a smaller cartridge after shooting a boomer for awhile makes it feel downright easy.

A fun fact (not): Sitting here writing the above I am suffering from another concussion headache after shooting a very large braked boomer all day yesterday. Seems to happen every time I do that. Small caliber suppressed is a much better way

Its definitely a possibility. I've shot this rifle well in the past with the Hornady 225s, but theres definitely some more anticipation when I shoot it cold versus when I shoot my .308 first, so I may warm up with the .308 and try a group next time I shoot.

I've personally never had a problem shooting lots of magnum rounds in a day as far as concussion/headache symptoms. The only thing that hurts about that is the money spent lol. As far as suppressors I wish I could own them here.

 

[AM_Hunter]

Can you talk more about your shooting setup? Table, bags, chair/prone, how you hold, are you a "exhale and fire when your breath is half out" kind of person or what? Perhaps there's a subtle detail in your routine that's changing that you haven't considered until now?

Shoot a 6-round group and see if your 5-shot pattern repeats when you know there's one more round coming.

I usually shoot better prone but the range I was at here didnt have a good place to shoot prone at 100y so it was table and chair. Front is on bipod, rear on bag, right hand on on grip with thumb not wrapped around, left hand fold under right arm holding rear bag for adjustment, exhale fully and squeeze till surprise, usually mouth is open if that matters lol. I try to be consistent and not rush when im shooting groups. Ill pay extra attention on the next trip.

 

[AM_Hunter]

Yes, I am suggesting that you shoot multiple 3-round groups until you have a statistically significant sample size.

I suspect you are developing a flinch. Giving yourself a break can help with the flinching. If I am shooting a rifle with heavy recoil, I will sometimes shoot my .22 LR in between sessions. That is also why I recommend the snap caps.

If your barrel is really light and/or you have a lightweight suppressor with no cover, it is possible you are getting some mirage.

Ill give that a try.

 

[AM_Hunter]

For load development, I follow a method similar to Form’s which was already linked. Making small changes with small sample sizes is ultimately an inefficient method for developing a load.

I'm certainly going to try the method on the next load development that I do. As far as the two current loads I'm testing, I feel like it isn't an issue with the load itself. If it was I would being seeing a more consistent spread on my "cone of fire" right? I feel like statistically its not likely for me to be stacking 3/5 rounds in the same hole and then two shots that bring that group to a 2 MOA size. If the load was in fact a 2 MOA load it should be sitting relatively consistently spread throughout that 2 MOA cone correct? This is why I was leaning towards the issue being flinching or scope. I have an Arken scope on order for a cheaper fun build I'm working on that I may swap onto the rifle to test as well. I know its not a high end trusted optic but it may tell me my scope is the issue.

 

[Lawnboi]

I didn’t have to even read your post. From the title I figured you had a Christensen arms.