Commercial Pilot?

[z987k]

As someone who managed international widebody captain in their early 30's, it's been an incredible career.

But no one can put up with the crap it takes to get there if they don't love flying. You'll fail if you're in it for the money. Hell, you might fail if you don't just get lucky with timing like I did(and I won't know that I was actually lucky with the timing for another 10-15 years). There was a whole lost decade after 9/11 where guys got stuck at 30k/yr jobs.

If you want to be a pilot you should have started training 5+ years ago, when it wasn't so good. Will starting now work out? Who knows. We're looking down the barrel of a recession and typically that means pilots lose jobs, losing wages, losing retirement, etc. In the last 22 years we've had 9/11 and then the 2008 crash both of which were really bad times to be a pilot. If it wasn't for congress bailing out the passenger airlines, 2020 would have been another very bad couple years for passenger airlines. They got beyond lucky there. It's typical that every 10 years or so, some event will come along and threaten everything you have.

 

[Mtncowboy]

I sure appreciate everyone's responses, very interesting!

 

[kcruz]

I am envious of all the people that are pilots. I've always loved flying and wanted to be a pilot, but was convinced otherwise and decided to get a degree based on the simple fact that in bad economies the layoffs tend to come quick. The uncertainty kept me away from it then, but I still constantly think about quitting my job and going all in. At 28 years old with a wife and a 1 year old I don't know how realistic it would really be to start the process now though.

 

[sconnieVLP]

All very valid points! A few more observations that may be pertinent to aspiring types:

UPT slots are wildly competitive these days, with a TON of applicants for each billet. Like, often more competitive than getting into Ivy League schools. And, assuming you get selected and pass the most difficult physical testing matrix in the DOD, then you're essentially in professional purgatory waiting for them to get your pipeline started. This is the part that I imagine excludes probably 90% of the population just from a financial perspective- you're obligated to the Air Force but not getting paid anything, and have to figure out how to support yourself on interim gigs for up to three years in some cases. After all that comes the ~12 year commitment.

RJ guys are actually living in a different world than it has been historically. One of my former coworkers just cashed the Endeavor 100K check last week. The turns still aren't the best, but it's no longer "CFI plus" like it used to be. For anyone outside aviation, this is in reference to regional jet gigs, which are typically the first "real" job you get in professional aviation after making it through your ratings and getting your hours. This is a much more achievable scenario, but requires you to get all your civilian licenses and hours on your own which is... a process. To get a little taste of what this is like, give "14 CFR 61.109 requirements" a google.

Aviation is definitely a great career with lots of opportunity- just adding some information that might help set realistic expectations for anyone reading along!

I think you’re referring to commissioning through OTS, in which case yes, it’s extremely competitive and varies year to year how many they take. OTS is essentially the “gap filler” for whatever number of officer accessions the AF is short for that given FY. Whatever is left after USAFA and AFROTC accessions goes to OTS.

Getting a pilot slot through AFROTC really isn’t that difficult, it’s just a ~3 year road to get it while you’re in college. That being said, if you get good grades (degree doesn’t matter), have good PT scores, are a good dude/dudette and are a decent leader you’ll get a pilot slot.

Medical is always the long pole in the tent though.

Regarding the wait, if you commission via AFROTC, they have up to one year to bring you onto AD. According to the AFROTC cadet intern we had in my office last summer the wait is about 9 months right now for UPT students. Once you’re on AD it varies on how long it will take to get a class date, but at that point you’re assigned a “casual job” where you will be getting paid to have basically no responsibilities. I was bow hunting on base every single day when I was on casual, it was glorious.

 

[sconnieVLP]

I am envious of all the people that are pilots. I've always loved flying and wanted to be a pilot, but was convinced otherwise and decided to get a degree based on the simple fact that in bad economies the layoffs tend to come quick. The uncertainty kept me away from it then, but I still constantly think about quitting my job and going all in. At 28 years old with a wife and a 1 year old I don't know how realistic it would really be to start the process now though.

Have you thought about rushing a Guard unit? You’d likely need to put yourself through some flying training to make yourself more competitive (or enlist into that unit and prove you’re a bro worth sending to UPT), but it’s a pretty good deal. You get hired into a specific aircraft at a specific location, so unless the AF decides to get rid of that jet you know what you’re flying and are still getting paid to go do it.

 

[Tahoe1305]

I think you’re referring to commissioning through OTS, in which case yes, it’s extremely competitive and varies year to year how many they take. OTS is essentially the “gap filler” for whatever number of officer accessions the AF is short for that given FY. Whatever is left after USAFA and AFROTC accessions goes to OTS.

Getting a pilot slot through AFROTC really isn’t that difficult, it’s just a ~3 year road to get it while you’re in college. That being said, if you get good grades (degree doesn’t matter), have good PT scores, are a good dude/dudette and are a decent leader you’ll get a pilot slot.

Medical is always the long pole in the tent though.

Regarding the wait, if you commission via AFROTC, they have up to one year to bring you onto AD. According to the AFROTC cadet intern we had in my office last summer the wait is about 9 months right now for UPT students. Once you’re on AD it varies on how long it will take to get a class date, but at that point you’re assigned a “casual job” where you will be getting paid to have basically no responsibilities. I was bow hunting on base every single day when I was on casual, it was glorious.

Concur.

I’m teaching at USAFA and anyone who is qualified gets a slot if they want one. Not to say it’s easy to get in from the get go. But a majority of those here want to fly and most all of them will.

 

[Tahoe1305]

There is more to commercial aviation than just flying heavy metal. I've flown commercially in Alaska for quite a while. Supercubs, Cessna 185 and 206's, doing hunter transports and wildlife survey work. Plus flying for some hunting guides.

You probably won't get near $300,000 but it's rewarding and can be an absolutely thrilling. I never even wanted to fly big jets.

It's an open job market right now for the right person.

Yeah I’m a small plane guy and have reservations about flying big ones. If I can figure out a way to own a plane and get other people to pay me to fly (somewhere between 100-200k a year in my pocket) to be my own boss. I’m all over it.

 

[z987k]

Yeah I’m a small plane guy and have reservations about flying big ones. If I can figure out a way to own a plane and get other people to pay me to fly (somewhere between 100-200k a year in my pocket) to be my own boss. I’m all over it.

As someone that's done both, it's way better to own the airplane and make it go where you want it to go than to have someone telling you it needs to go.
Much much better to make the money and have the toy.

 

[Tahoe1305]

As someone that's done both, it's way better to own the airplane and make it go where you want it to go than to have someone telling you it needs to go.
Much much better to make the money and have the toy.

I am buying my old V tail back…..but don’t think it’s going to make me money anytime soon.

Need a Pilatus. Let me know if you have any ideas on how to make the business plan mod work!

 

[ShootOkHuntWorse]

Thought I would chime in on this. Been at a major airline the past 16 years. Without bragging 300k is becoming average for pay. Most captains are making 400+ without trying. This is for an average of 14 days of work a month. It is a very good time to get in the industry. I have flown with several first officers that made it to a major in 5 total years. Incredible to think about. The military route there costs less but it will take you 13+ years. Civilian is more expensive but way quicker. Seniority equals pay and quality of life. The regionals are also a whole new world. First officers are making 100k out of the gate and captains 200k plus. How long is that sustainable? Who knows. I will say this is the best job in the world. I coach my son's baseball and basketball team full time during the week...then work the weekends. Can honestly say I have never dreaded going to work. Good luck out there.

Whale driver. I snickered. Love seeing the “Dos Dos” on the ramp.

 

[HighUintas]

This has always been something I've wanted to do and just started thinking seriously about it the last few years.... And then found out a few months ago my FOV is about 60 degrees. Cool

 

[kcruz]

Have you thought about rushing a Guard unit? You’d likely need to put yourself through some flying training to make yourself more competitive (or enlist into that unit and prove you’re a bro worth sending to UPT), but it’s a pretty good deal. You get hired into a specific aircraft at a specific location, so unless the AF decides to get rid of that jet you know what you’re flying and are still getting paid to go do it.

It’s not something I have considered, but i will definitely be looking into it!


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[kcruz]

Yeah I’m a small plane guy and have reservations about flying big ones. If I can figure out a way to own a plane and get other people to pay me to fly (somewhere between 100-200k a year in my pocket) to be my own boss. I’m all over it.

Is making $100k-$200k a year as a small plane pilot realistic? I’ve always wondered how much pilots in Alaska are making. I always just assumed it wasn’t great pay for most, but they did it for the flexibility and other hunting benefits.


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[f16jack]

It’s not something I have considered, but i will definitely be looking into it!


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I was ROTC, active duty, National Guard and AF Reserve. While in the guard I sat on selection boards for UPT. Our normal process was to hire from within. Take a good enlisted member, like an ammo troop or crew chief who was motivated. Give them a commission and send them to pilot training. We never took a walk-in from outside the unit and gave them one of our valued pilot training slots.
If we had a walk in we would advise that he enlist in our unit, and in a couple of years could compete with the other members.

 

[Tahoe1305]

Is making $100k-$200k a year as a small plane pilot realistic? I’ve always wondered how much pilots in Alaska are making. I always just assumed it wasn’t great pay for most, but they did it for the flexibility and other hunting benefits.


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Hopefully someone chimes in.

I HAVE to assume $100k isn’t hard. Especially if you have the ability to use the asset (plane) for personal uses that isn’t too bad. Not sure about doubling that.

The problem I see is asset price. I cub, small Cessna, float plane can be had pretty easily for under $300k. Plan on about $20k a year for fixed costs (hanger, mx, insurance).

I need a $1-3M plane (PC-12, Caravan, Porter) to fly and figure out how to own operate and make that $100-200k.

 

[sconnieVLP]

Concur.

I’m teaching at USAFA and anyone who is qualified gets a slot if they want one. Not to say it’s easy to get in from the get go. But a majority of those here want to fly and most all of them will.

Not sure how true it is, but I’ve heard that USAFA cadets have to go present their case on why the don’t want to go be a pilot if they are qualified.

Little more competitive to get a slot on the AFROTC side, but then again you can just walk into a detachment and join unlike the process to get into USAFA.

Not to derail the thread too much, but how do you like teaching at USAFA? I want to get off the East Coast (3x East Coast assignments) and teaching has always intrigued me. Landing a gig in the MSS department would definitely be of interest in the next few years.

 

[Tahoe1305]

Not sure how true it is, but I’ve heard that USAFA cadets have to go present their case on why the don’t want to go be a pilot if they are qualified.

Little more competitive to get a slot on the AFROTC side, but then again you can just walk into a detachment and join unlike the process to get into USAFA.

Not to derail the thread too much, but how do you like teaching at USAFA? I want to get off the East Coast (3x East Coast assignments) and teaching has always intrigued me. Landing a gig in the MSS department would definitely be of interest in the next few years.

This was true 20 years ago when I was there(had to explain to the 1 star why you didn’t want to fly). I haven’t heard such since I’ve been back and I “feel” I’d heard from the students.

The commitment definitely scares a few off.

Teaching here is an amazing job. I fly every other day and next year I hope to fly even more. Teaching the cadets is rewarding. I work the fewest hours I have in my career and don’t feel too guilty.

For expectation management getting a job here is very tough. I tried in MSS and was laughed at because I didn’t have a Masters in Military studies. Even with 3x PME courses and all my deployed, joint experiences.

I got in to teach math because they were desperate and I owed a pay back for a masters from two decades ago.

Happy to assist where I can.

 

[z987k]

Is making $100k-$200k a year as a small plane pilot realistic? I’ve always wondered how much pilots in Alaska are making. I always just assumed it wasn’t great pay for most, but they did it for the flexibility and other hunting benefits.


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It's depends entirely on if you're seasonal or year round. The key is to have work all year and not just June-September. Real small stuff is almost entirely seasonal.

No one flies small airplanes commercial for hunting benefits, because flying hunters is a big way you're making your money. So you're busy as hell all hunting season flying and not hunting. I guess after you retire you'll know ALL the spots.
Also, while I do really enjoy skiing and snowmachines, summer is what is most amazing about Alaska. If you're a small airplane pilot you will be working hardest all summer with no time to enjoy it for yourself.

Flying small airplanes in Alaska is my favorite thing to do. I very much recommend against doing it for a career.

 

[gbflyer]

Hopefully someone chimes in.

I HAVE to assume $100k isn’t hard. Especially if you have the ability to use the asset (plane) for personal uses that isn’t too bad. Not sure about doubling that.

The problem I see is asset price. I cub, small Cessna, float plane can be had pretty easily for under $300k. Plan on about $20k a year for fixed costs (hanger, mx, insurance).

I need a $1-3M plane (PC-12, Caravan, Porter) to fly and figure out how to own operate and make that $100-200k.

If you are talking Alaska 135 air taxi, float planes, and fixed costs, that $20K won’t even buy the insurance. It might for a $100K machine on wheels…maybe.

I have no idea how they make money. I’d find a good outfit to work for and collect pilot pay. Let someone else deal with the costs, and the administration. The FAA is less than helpful when you are a small commercial operator.

 

[colby12]

I’ve been following this and there is a lot of good feedback and enough interest to share a little to those who don’t think there is a chance for them to fly. I’m a random guy on the internet giving unsolicited advice, copy. If you have questions on the process reach out and I’ll help where I can.

I am currently an AF pilot, early in the career so there are dudes on the forum who speak to longer term issues. I started in the army guard enlisted. Made some stellar decisions that put me on the shit list, for arrested for a criminal mischief, burgarly, and public intox. Long story short, I was drunk, did dumb things, everything but the public intox got dropped. I also had a minor consumption prior(slow learner). As I matured and stayed enlisted I ended up finishing college. Got a wild idea to apply to OTS to be a USAF pilot, worst they could say was no. At the time they were hiring a lot of people and I got lucky. Is it a grind, yes. Was it all worth it, also yes. All of this to say, if you want it. Apply, put in the work, and hope for the best. Regardless of what you think is in your way the biggest hurdle is probably you. Various routes to achieve the same end goal. If you want to know more, shoot me a message.