Cold bore zero versus (very) Hot bore zero “test”

[The Guide]

Practice less, not really the message.


From what I can tell, Form does two things. Shoot a lot, and Post here a lot.

You just read his 14,009th post, you have to admit, he’s still, not very good at it.


Not hard to surmise, that in both posting and shooting, it will take him longer than most, to get skilled. That’s okay.


What makes no sense, his wild assertions about people he never met, are as unskilled as he is.

I just read your 888th post and you're not very good at it either... Errors in spelling, punctuation, and grammatical formatting. Doesn't mean everything you do or say is wrong but your words expressed do not convey knowledge. You also assume that others do not have knowledge or skills that are greater than your own. Open your mind and learn. Try something new. Be vulnerable and admit you might not be the best.

Jay

 

[eric1115]

He's got to be going for one of those call out invites to go get humbled and learnfor free.

Valiant effort. 9.5/10

I'd be lying if I said that thought never crossed my mind.

 

[Formidilosus]

I'd be lying if I said that thought never crossed my mind.

Haha

 

[Dobermann]

I'd be lying if I said that thought never crossed my mind.

Okay everyone. Be on the lookout for a new account called eric1116 that starts telling Form he doesn't know how to shoot ...

 

[journeyman713]

I just read your 888th post and you're not very good at it either... Errors in spelling, punctuation, and grammatical formatting. Doesn't mean everything you do or say is wrong but your words expressed do not convey knowledge. You also assume that others do not have knowledge or skills that are greater than your own. Open your mind and learn. Try something new. Be vulnerable and admit you might not be the best.

Jay

So, Grammer over Content then???
i think i just learnt something, about you.

Hope no one with spell check, ever tells you to, "go jump off a bridge".

Am I the only one that noticed he said, he's smarter than the gun industry?

You guys must know something I don't. If he is senile or something, just PM me.

 

[ElPollo]

Don’t y’all hate it when someone crawls out from under their bridge to take over a thread and divert it with a gajillion posts that don’t add anything to the topic but instead focus on personal attacks?

 

[Shraggs]

Not only not add diversity of objectivity but is narcissistic and antagonistic.

At first it was something to get a chuckle with such stupidity. But once he started targeting it’s a problem…

 

[alexnelon]

Don’t y’all hate it when someone crawls out from under their bridge to take over a thread and divert it with a gajillion posts that don’t add anything to the topic but instead focus on personal attacks?

This topic is fully hashed out anyway. I think the thread is a prime candidate for locking at this point.

 

[Marbles]

This topic is fully hashed out anyway. I think the thread is a prime candidate for locking at this point.

Problem with locking is then the thread dies.

 

[HighUintas]

We just need the ban hammer to come out

 

[RockAndSage]

We just need the ban hammer to come out

Bat signal launched:

The Ban God

Listen and make your own on Suno.

suno.com

 

[T-Stick]

I did about 100 rounds of testing with a 223 and 30 rounds of testing with a 25-06 to look at group sizes and POI changes. I did not observe any significant POI shift from my 5 shot to 10 shot groups but in each case the last 5 shots always increased the overall group size in full power loads. Here is one set of 25-06 targets.

Pic taken at the 5 shot interval




Pic taken at completion of 10 shots with group measurement.




223 with a 10 shot group of full power loads



I checked a number of my 223 loads and they would shoot the first 5 close to .5MOA (more often under) and then spread out to around 1MOA (some under/some over) in the last 5 shots. This looks very similar to what Form posted--POI did not significantly shift but overall groups became larger.

So then I shot a reduced 223 load of 5 shots and took a pic. I then fired 5 more shots and took a group size. In the reduced load scenario the group did not enlarge nearly as much as in the full power load scenario.



10 shot group of reduced loads showing small enlargement



Anyway I'm sharing it FWIW.

 

[MCGHeel]

I did about 100 rounds of testing with a 223 and 30 rounds of testing with a 25-06 to look at group sizes and POI changes. I did not observe any significant POI shift from my 5 shot to 10 shot groups but in each case the last 5 shots always increased the overall group size in full power loads. Here is one set of 25-06 targets.

Pic taken at the 5 shot interval

View attachment 1007998


Pic taken at completion of 10 shots with group measurement.

View attachment 1008000


223 with a 10 shot group of full power loads

View attachment 1008004

I checked a number of my 223 loads and they would shoot the first 5 close to .5MOA (more often under) and then spread out to around 1MOA (some under/some over) in the last 5 shots. This looks very similar to what Form posted--POI did not significantly shift but overall groups became larger.

So then I shot a reduced 223 load of 5 shots and took a pic. I then fired 5 more shots and took a group size. In the reduced load scenario the group did not enlarge nearly as much as in the full power load scenario.

View attachment 1008012

10 shot group of reduced loads showing small enlargement

View attachment 1008013

Anyway I'm sharing it FWIW.

It makes sense on some level. By firing 10 shots instead of 5 you have sampled more of your rifles true cone of fire. That group is never getting smaller since you measure group sizes from 2 furthest points anyway (I assume you do anyway) and you dont control whether any subsequent round comes from the mean or 2 or 3 SD away from the mean. An interesting wrinkle would be to shoot the first 5 at one target and as quickly as you can shift to another target and shoot 5 more and compare the group sizes.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[T-Stick]

It makes sense on some level. By firing 10 shots instead of 5 you have sampled more of your rifles true cone of fire. That group is never getting smaller since you measure group sizes from 2 furthest points anyway (I assume you do anyway) and you dont control whether any subsequent round comes from the mean or 2 or 3 SD away from the mean. An interesting wrinkle would be to shoot the first 5 at one target and as quickly as you can shift to another target and shoot 5 more and compare the group sizes.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

In my shooting the 5 shots usually set the maximum spread unless I allowed my barrel to get too hot. My tests showed heat opening the group even though the aggregate didn't move the overall POI.

For hunting purposes in my rifles the 10 shots didn’t reveal anything that I didn't already know about my rifles from seeing multiple 3 shot and 5 shot groups when load developing. I use multiple groups to establish sightin and accuracy aggregates.

For me I am most concerned about predicting where the first shot will land and then the next 2. Seldom do you or should you need to shoot more than that.

If those first 3 cannot usually stay under .75 MOA I am looking for a new load.

 

[1000yards]

Ruger M77 Hawkeye
Factory 223 Remington, 9 twist, 22"
Free floating barrel but the action is not bedded
Maven RS 1.2
Scythe TI
69 TMK, 2850 fps

First, here's a control group. This is about the best that this rifle and I can do. No wind, no coffee, really taking my time.


Here's the first group from this morning. Ten shots quickly. Not that I would read too much into this, but the last shot was the bottom right impact. After this I shot 10 rounds of rapid fire on steel.


After the 10 rounds on paper and 10 rounds rapid fire, the barrel was too hot to touch. I shot another 10 on paper.


After this I pulled out two other cold rifles and fired 10 shot groups through each to confirm that it wasn't just me getting tired.

What could I be dealing with here?

 

[NSI]

Ruger M77 Hawkeye
Factory 223 Remington, 9 twist, 22"
Free floating barrel but the action is not bedded
Maven RS 1.2
Scythe TI
69 TMK, 2850 fps

First, here's a control group. This is about the best that this rifle and I can do. No wind, no coffee, really taking my time.
View attachment 1064497

Here's the first group from this morning. Ten shots quickly. Not that I would read too much into this, but the last shot was the bottom right impact. After this I shot 10 rounds of rapid fire on steel.
View attachment 1064498

After the 10 rounds on paper and 10 rounds rapid fire, the barrel was too hot to touch. I shot another 10 on paper.
View attachment 1064499

After this I pulled out two other cold rifles and fired 10 shot groups through each to confirm that it wasn't just me getting tired.

What could I be dealing with here?

How much mirage were you contending with?

If you were mitigating it (fan, barrel band, etc), this is simply a poorly stress relieved barrel like so many others. If not, mirage would take the lion's share of the blame here.

-J

 

[1000yards]

How much mirage were you contending with?

If you were mitigating it (fan, barrel band, etc), this is simply a poorly stress relieved barrel like so many others. If not, mirage would take the lion's share of the blame here.

-J

There was some mirage but I don't think there's enough to take all the blame. I have a burn proof gear cover over the suppressor, and I have shot normal groups through mirage much worse than what I saw here.

 

[NSI]

There was some mirage but I don't think there's enough to take all the blame. I have a burn proof gear cover over the suppressor, and I have shot normal groups through mirage much worse than what I saw here.

Got it. Mirage from the barrel matters too.

You can share blame between the mirage and the poor stress relief of the barrel if you've shot substantially better groups in similar mirage conditions.

-J

 

[RWT]

Got it. Mirage from the barrel matters too.

You can share blame between the mirage and the poor stress relief of the barrel if you've shot substantially better groups in similar mirage conditions.

-J

Mirage blows my groups up after 7 or 8 rounds. I must have a fan on the barrel or the chamber fan while I reload the magazine to make it to 10 shots. Even doing this the last 2 rounds I am fighting mirage from the barrel. Then I have mirage from the ground to contend with. I am very curious if the people at 5K altitude and above deal with similar issues? I am under 1000’ sea level generally with 70+% humidity. Most shots are between 6 & 10x

 

[NSI]

Mirage blows my groups up after 7 or 8 rounds. I must have a fan on the barrel or the chamber fan while I reload the magazine to make it to 10 shots. Even doing this the last 2 rounds I am fighting mirage from the barrel. Then I have mirage from the ground to contend with. I am very curious if the people at 5K altitude and above deal with similar issues? I am under 1000’ sea level generally with 70+% humidity. Most shots are between 6 & 10x

Same issues at altitude.

-J