Cliven Bundy Situation

[ScottR_EHJ]

Very True! OUR government will get as big and corrupt as we the people let it. Unfortunately I think this was the first of many conflicts. This did highlight land use/ownership issues. I think States will start to make a stand and that's when things will get interesting.

Agreed. Honestly it's not going to matter who is ultimately right or wrong, but rather who decides to push back. If you see your neighbor being pushed by feds most of us will stand with our neighbor...

 

[Shrek]

Rules/laws get changed all the time. Fees go up, fees get added, life goes on.

He can choose to do something else, whether he likes it or not.

If he didn't like the law, he should have worked to change the law rather than ignoring it and doing whatever he wants for 20 years.

Just because you've done something for half your life, doesn't give you the right to do it forever.

At some point, people that had never paid taxes had to start paying taxes.

Use fees keep getting put in place, whether it is grazing fees, camp ground fees, lake fees, access fees......we may not like it, but if we just choose to not pay we are subject to the fines and actions associated with that action.

I look at Romans 13 when I have a problem with government authority. Either work legally to change the "authority", submit to it, or move would be my thoughts.

It's a sad situation IMO, he knew right from wrong, he chose wrong. He may feel he had no other choice and that he could get away with it, but he wasn't in the right.
The government is just making it worse with how they have handled it, making more decisions and taking actions that are wrong as well.

Lose/lose situation.

I sure am glad my forefathers weren't moral milk toast and stood and fought tyranny and I'm thankful that there are still some today who would no submit. The issue at hand is states rights and the constitution. He is standing on a plain reading of the constitution. The federal government is acting on the general assumption that the constitution is just a suggestion and may do whatever it wishes.

 

[gelton]

The bottomed line here - non compliance is Americas oldest form of protest. Just ask the original boston tea party or Rosa Parks. If these people did what some are suggesting here (lay down GI) then we would still be ruled by the crown and people of color would still be sitting in the back of the bus.

 

[5MilesBack]

This is a perfect example of American's being sucked into the media machine. The media rarely if ever reports the whole truth. Heck, most the time the media doesn't even know the truth. Then everyone makes a judgement about it and is ready to hang the man.........without knowing anything about the situation.

 

[Matt Cashell]

BLM and Forest Service Lands are not "government owned." They are managed by government agencies and owned by the public, and maintained for the public through an imperfect system. Managing for the whole is an exercise in compromise, and most interests leave unhappy most of the time.

As a backpacking hunter, I am sure glad federal public lands exist, and I hope they are there for my kids to hunt on.

It is disappointing to hear calls for bloodshed from the patriot soapbox, when there clearly is disagreement even among our group of like-minded folks over the issue of this man's cows.

I am going to check out some hunting threads.

 

[krueger]

Bold statement. Wrong, but bold. If anyone knows how many acres can support a single cow or a million head of cattle it would be the guys using the same plot for centuries to raise the cattle. Its far from profitable to have a bunch of starved thirsty cattle multiplying and running rampid.
By no means am I saying the bundys are brilliant, but given a reason to argue over what they stand for america could learn alot.. These old ranchers will tell you how much water a cactus needs to survive for 12 years, how much water is used from a 12 year old juniper tree on an annual basis. And so on.

Hardstalk, I encourage you to educate yourself on natural resource economics, in particular a concept called "Tragedy of the Commons" were private firms overuse public resources to maximize private profits which ultimately results in negative social externality (range destruction). Your statement was BOLD but wrong. Additionally how in the world would a rancher know anything about how much water a cactus or juniper tree needs...Really??...they raise cattle, they don't nor do they have time to study terrestial flora. I might be bias but i always error on the side of professional scientist and engineers over "good ole boys" when it comes to technical understandings.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons

 

[Hardstalk]

Hardstalk, I encourage you to educate yourself on natural resource economics, in particular a concept called "Tragedy of the Commons" were private firms overuse public resources to maximize private profits which ultimately results in negative social externality (range destruction). Your statement was BOLD but wrong. Additionally how in the world would a rancher know anything about how much water a cactus or juniper tree needs...Really??...they raise cattle, they don't nor do they have time to study terrestial flora. I might be bias but i always error on the side of professional scientist and engineers over "good ole boys" when it comes to technical understandings.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons

Sounds interesting, and im sure there is knowledge to be had. But not the kind of knowledge that can be obtained over a campfire with a beer and a cattle rancher that has based his livelyhood for a long time on a certain area. I stated that they may not be the most brilliant folks when it comes to a textbook. But there land they know, and everything that inhabits it they have studied. For life. It leaves me blank when im given the opportunity to sit and listen to these old ranchers talk about what college never taught them.

I came from the school of hard knocks where you would volunteer your horses and labor to help a neighbor round up his cattle, brand his calves, cut what needs to be cut, vaccinate what needs vaccinating and along the way you would get smacked in the head and screamed at for flanking a calf the wrong direction. All with the hopes to be allowed a conversation at the end of the day about how it all comes together, how it works efficiently, and ultimately how its profitable.

The college world doesnt understand why these guys do what they do, as for a business plan shark tank would laugh at them. Its a different breed out there for sure.

Like I said I still haven't chose a party to side with.

 

[PA 5-0]

I sure am glad my forefathers weren't moral milk toast and stood and fought tyranny and I'm thankful that there are still some today who would not submit.

A-freakin-MEN Brother. The more I watch the videos of this incident, the more hope fills my heart. As so many lost souls wander these lands, ready to hide under their couch the minute someone raises their voice, these cowboys and cowgirls stood proud in front of the big machine. Putting themselves in harms way simply for a belief, a principle. This country was founded on the same exact ideals. I am not a historian or a philosopher, but the more I watch this situation unfold, the more proud I become and the more I believe this is a turning point. This is not about cows and tortoises. Its about brave Americans forcefully saying enough is enough. I really hope Washington is paying attention before one of these situations goes really bad.

May God bless America.

 

[realunlucky]

I personally don't trust " professional" scientists that money comes from some where and more often that not taints the findings. This thread is depressing on so many levels. Scary to think how many sheepoeple there are both sides of the issue. I will agree it will come a day when the majority will push back and make the system be about governing and less about how much a politician can glean from the public. Wait until this next election with no regulation on the money that can be spent its sure to open a few eyes

 

[sneaky]

To me it sounds like he was grazing too many cattle on the range and his cattle caused so much damage that it was harming a native endangered species. And in addition to that he wasn't paying his grazing fees either...... So how is this idiot in the right???

Are you capable of bringing forth any discussion on this without calling names? Looks like you can't. You do realize that two of our biggest military installations in the country are smack dab in the middle of this desert tortoise's range, right? How is it that we can run maneuvers, drop bombs, shoot artillery, drive trucks and tanks all over their habitat and that's fine, but cattle decimate their environment? I'll give you a pretty good idea why...the govt is in control of the bases and they've deemed it acceptable risks, they want control of this area so all of a sudden it's decimating this habitat. Guess you aren't aware that the govt is euthanizing about 700 of these same tortoises either. The DTCC near Vegas takes care of some 1400 or so of those things and runs on a $1mil a year budget, it's being closed for lack of funding. Feds spent $3mil on this fiasco...enough to fund the DTCC for 3 more years. The govt uses these grazing fees to essentially put these ranches out of business, would you want to pay someone to help shut you down? Without access to cheap grazing areas your beef prices would go through the roof. That hits everyone in the pocket book. Could this have been handled better? Absolutely. Armed federal agents on a cattle ranch and not on the border? Absolutely not.

 

[Hardstalk]

Hardstalk, I encourage you to educate yourself on natural resource economics, in particular a concept called "Tragedy of the Commons" were private firms overuse public resources to maximize private profits which ultimately results in negative social externality (range destruction). Your statement was BOLD but wrong. Additionally how in the world would a rancher know anything about how much water a cactus or juniper tree needs...Really??...they raise cattle, they don't nor do they have time to study terrestial flora. I might be bias but i always error on the side of professional scientist and engineers over "good ole boys" when it comes to technical understandings.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons

Also, I feel an apology is due on my behalf to you. Ive got no business calling your statements inaccurate. With the given media knowledge on this subject its nearly impossible to claim someone is wrong in the given situation. My apology. Sometimes sarcasm gets the better half of my texting

 

[krueger]

Are you capable of bringing forth any discussion on this without calling names? Looks like you can't.
...
Without access to cheap grazing areas your beef prices would go through the roof.

I don't eat beef and it looks like I can.

 

[krueger]

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I'm going to read some hunting post

 

[William Hanson (live2hunt)]

Its not about tortoises, as has been pointed out. The tortoises are a pathetic veil of what is really going on. It is similar to the last lead smelter in the States being closed down because of Epa regulations, it's all a guise to snow the liberal public into believing that its all for the greater good when the reality it's all slowly chipping away at our freedoms and our constitution in a round about way.

 

[Shrek]

I do not believe this is a tragedy of the commons . There were formal rights worked out . It was a consumptive use that left little for other uses but so does the land under NYC.

 

[William Hanson (live2hunt)]

I agree as well, tragedy of commons does not apply here.

 

[boom]

Hardstalk, I encourage you to educate yourself on natural resource economics, in particular a concept called "Tragedy of the Commons" were private firms overuse public resources to maximize private profits which ultimately results in negative social externality (range destruction). Your statement was BOLD but wrong. Additionally how in the world would a rancher know anything about how much water a cactus or juniper tree needs...Really??...they raise cattle, they don't nor do they have time to study terrestial flora. I might be bias but i always error on the side of professional scientist and engineers over "good ole boys" when it comes to technical understandings.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons

AWESOME!! i had a final, with one question: i had to write an essay about Tragedy of the Commons sophomore college english class.. i was pissed, but i rallied and passed the exam.

if i could go back and find that professor, i would thank him and buy him a beer. this applies to so much..not just land use..i use it all the time to explain stuff..thanks for the refresher and perfect use for this discussion..

 

[Jason Snyder]

This thread cracks me up.

If Bundy owned or had claim to the land, why is he only asserting it now and not 60 years ago?

The BLM didn't bankrupt the ranchers, Clark County PURCHASED their grazing leases from them and gave them back to the BLM for mitigation.

Bundy cannot pay the state of Nevada (actually he tried to pay the county) for a fee that is owed to the BLM. Do you pay your federal income taxes to the County Assessor?

If you don't like a situation, change it. Bundy had options within the court system to take the BLM to task if he so desired. That is the process guaranteed and protected in the Constitution.

I'm going to read a hunting thread also.

 

[LostInSpace278]

I do not see this as 2nd Amendment argument. I am sure we are seeing the end result for ratings purposes. Ask Bundy and the government is in the wrong. Ask the government and Bundy is in the wrong. He did not pay his grazing fee's, the government tried to collect. Threats were made, I am sure from both sides. Things got out of hand.
Here is the part that chaps my ass...I have seen a lot of post all over the internet, putting Bundy on a pedestal for standing up for himself. These same people should, when the BLM has to rehabilitate the land from over use, be the ones to pay for it. Do you think this behavior will stop with Bundy? They will be coming out of the wood work to graze their cattle for free. Who is going to pay for that land to rehabilitated?
What would these same people do if Cousin Bob Landowner, lets his cows graze on their land, that his great great grandfather use to own? I highly doubt that will be cheering him on.
They will wait till the hoopla dies down and pick him up running his errands a few months down the road.

 

[PA 5-0]

The questions that needs to be asked are, is the grazing fees even legal to begin with?

Was it legal for the BLM to confiscate the land from the state of Nevada?

Why did local authorities refuse to participate in the raid?

Why is the state claiming that Mr. Bundy owes no fees.

If Mr. Bundy is such a free loader, why are the other ranchers in the area supporting him?

Why is the BLM killing the very same turtles they are claiming to be trying to save?

Why steal his cattle to pay for his supposed taxes or grazing fees he owes, (at an enormous cost to taxpayers) then offer to split the proceeds with him, then kill most of the cattle they rounded up?

Why deploy snipers to collect taxes or fees supposedly owed? This move was meant to legally murder him, a favorite tactic of liberal politicians.

Come on guys, think. This whole thing stinks worse than a 4 day old road kill skunk in July.

The fastest way to gain sympathy for your illegality is to make your enemy look like a free loading jerkoff law breaker.

He owes 1.2 million in taxes, he is a free loading thief that refuses to pay his fair share!!!

Think beyond what you are spoon fed by the state run media.

I will be 48 here in a few weeks and I am astounded by how much freedom we have lost in the last forty years. Even more astounded by how few people actually take notice or even care.

It's pretty obvious that the Bundy ranch is being forced out of business so a solar farm can be put in and Harry "Greed" Reid is behind the whole fiasco. Coincidence that the guy that is currently in charge of the BLM used to work for Harry Reid. Harry Reid's son is all chummy with the company that wants to put the solar farm in.

Smell the stench of corruption yet?

Does this serve the public good and best use of this land?

Mr Snyder, may I humbly suggest that you contemplate the answers to the questions in the above referenced post. I have also attached a link to an article that provides a good timeline of events that led up to this stand off. Events dating back to the early 90s that included several BLM offices being pipe bombed and at least one rancher being jailed because he protested the grazing fees.

As several have suggested Bundy just fight them in court, I ask would that be a fair fight??? Even financially possible?? So could a rancher afford to pay seriously expensive attorneys to go into a Federal court in front of a federal judge and battle a federal agency and expect a fair shake?? That's just naïve.

Very complicated issue that's been brewing for 20+ years.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...ween-cliven-bundy-and-the-federal-government/