Clickers. . 7 SAUM . . Im confused

[Wrench]

My experience with bertam brass was me paying a premium price and happily throwing it away. It was sub garbage.

Adg has been good for me. It is a bit heavier which means it will pressure up a bit sooner.

On chamber "polishing" I'm a stop at 320/400 kinda guy. I don't like slick chambers. I believe they aid in brass flow.

 

[doverpack12]

Look up Alex Wheeler on his website or YouTube. He has a video explaining the various measurements to take to figure out how well or poor your sizing die fits your chamber. Brand or die quality means nothing in regards to how well it fits your chamber and both chambers are very likely different and need their own die.
No amount of shoulder bump will fix the issue.
Alex also has a video about checking brass shoulder setback and sizing with a stripped bolt. Do that as well.
I believe whidden can make you a custom die but you need to know where you are at first and what the problem dimension is. Sometimes a different die can fix the issue

 

[archp625]

Yeah no, I wholly disagree. Accuracy minded BR of all disciplines have completely moved away from that notion and guns are shooting smaller than ever.

Arent most BR guys just shoulder bumping their brass and not full length sizing. Would that factor into a chamber thats not sloppy?

 

[Wrench]

Most are giving a .0015-.002" bump on a fl die......or at least that's what they'll tell you.

 

[rootacres]

I've never used Bertram brass but I am thinking its two issues. I think chambers are tighter now more than ever. Tighter chambers typically means more accuracy and who doesn't love an accurate gun. But if it gets a little dirty or you hunt with the rifle then all bets are off. The second, I believe is ADG brass. I have given up on ADG brass. Had it for a 6.5 PRC and for a 300 WSM. Both produced clickers. I think its just too dang hard of brass.

Same here. It's a pretty well documented thing for the 7 SAUM folks that ADG brass can be tricky. Thats part of the reason I tried Bertram. Idk what the answer is but I think I am going to try polishing the chamber. I had custom dies made from Whidden using my ADG brass on my last 7 SAUM barrel. I may have helped with shoulder bump and slightly tighter sizing but not enough.

 

[rootacres]

@TaperPin @Article 4 @wind gypsy

Ok so cleaned this thing as clean as it is going to get. Didnt really notice any difference. So I took a loaded, sized, shoulder bumped cartridge and slide it into the chamber. No resistance. Then I took a 2nd fired case from the last range trip and slid it into the chamber. I stopped when I felt resistance. Took pics, does this help diagnose anything?


Sized / Loaded fresh round





2nd fired case, no other prep done.

 

[wind gypsy]

Take my input with a grain of salt because it's mostly just from reading a lot about clickers.. I've not much experience solving clickers beyond buying brass that is less prone to it which doesn't seem like a good solution for you. Seems you're getting some sizing on the case web at least so I'm skeptical about a die that sizes it even more being the answer. I'd look at your fired case web dimension and search the internets to see if opening up the chamber a bit there with a different reamer might be worth considering.

I know I read the first 6UM reamer was a bit tight at the base and they spec'd a new one to better combat clickers. Maybe @Ryan Avery or @UM GM know what dimension they went with on the second reamer and could share it in relation to what you're seeing since its based off the same case.

 

[Article 4]

@TaperPin @Article 4 @wind gypsy

Ok so cleaned this thing as clean as it is going to get. Didnt really notice any difference. So I took a loaded, sized, shoulder bumped cartridge and slide it into the chamber. No resistance. Then I took a 2nd fired case from the last range trip and slid it into the chamber. I stopped when I felt resistance. Took pics, does this help diagnose anything?


Sized / Loaded fresh round

View attachment 700605



2nd fired case, no other prep done.

View attachment 700606

It appears there is a significant expansion of the brass in picture #2 that could be due to headspace.

Headspace is the distance measured from a closed chamber's breech face to the chamber feature that limits the insertion depth of a cartridge. Headspacing refers to the act of stopping deeper cartridge insertion. The exact part of the cartridge that seats against the limiting chamber feature differs among cartridge and gun designs.

This could be the reamer used. This could also be your bump being a bit more than is needed. When you bump, do you measure COAL or base to shoulder?

 

[BBob]

Arent most BR guys just shoulder bumping their brass and not full length sizing.

That went out the window 20 years ago.

 

[rootacres]

It appears there is a significant expansion of the brass in picture #2 that could be due to headspace.

Headspace is the distance measured from a closed chamber's breech face to the chamber feature that limits the insertion depth of a cartridge. Headspacing refers to the act of stopping deeper cartridge insertion. The exact part of the cartridge that seats against the limiting chamber feature differs among cartridge and gun designs.

This could be the reamer used. This could also be your bump being a bit more than is needed. When you bump, do you measure COAL or base to shoulder?

Bumping the shoulder more than is needed could be a contributing factor?

That is one thing I am going to try. I completely reset my Whidden die following his YouTube video on it. I now have a .002"-.003" bump where I believe I had more than that previously.

I measure base to shoulder on measuring shoulder bump.

 

[wind gypsy]

I wouldn't think much can be gleaned from inserting a FL sized case to an unsized one in that manner unless someone has super calibrated eyeballs or has done such a thing a handful of times. The FL sized case is smaller in diameter for the full length of the case and the length to shoulder datum is shorter - of course the case head will be able to slide further forward.

 

[Article 4]

Bumping the shoulder more than is needed could be a contributing factor?

That is one thing I am going to try. I completely reset my Whidden die following his YouTube video on it. I now have a .002"-.003" bump where I believe I had more than that previously.

I measure base to shoulder on measuring shoulder bump.

It could...we are chasing some phantoms right now but if your brass is expanding a lot and the headspace is long, it could lengthen the case and cause pressure e.g. clicking.

You don't want your brass to stretch and expand too much. I use about a .001 to .0015 bump usually. .003 may be a bit much

 

[wind gypsy]

I'm doubtful that one 0.003" bump after the virgin firing is the cause of significant issues but I'm wrong more than I'd like to be..

 

[Article 4]

I'm doubtful that one 0.003" bump after the virgin firing is the cause of significant issues but I'm wrong more than I'd like to be..

This added another thought

@rootacres - how does your bolt feel at battery? Loose, tight? Any play or fitment issue you can feel?

 

[BBob]

I'm doubtful that one 0.003" bump after the virgin firing is the cause of significant issues

Bumping .003" is not the issue causing clickers

 

[HighUintas]

2nd firing on this brass

I just measured a few, looks like .002"-.003" sized to fired.

Ive always wondered if the shell plate on an RL550B was taller than a RCBS single stage shell holder. Not allowing the brass to go into the sizing die fully. But there's no issue getting the brass far enough into the Whidden die to bump the shoulder back .002"-.003" like they recommend.

**It's probably worth mentioning, I didnt get clickers on first firings of virgin brass. Both with ADG and the Bertram.

If your virgin loads didn't have clickers, and also after looking at your pictures, it's highly likely that your sizing die and chamber at the 0.200 line are not correctly dimensioned to prevent clickers with the brass you're using.

Saum and other fat bodies cases are notorious for it because they're harder to size that 0.200 line on the case and get adequate clearance in the chamber to prevent a clicker.

Alex Wheeler has said that whidden's dies, even when custom made, may not size the base enough to prevent it. At least that is the case with prc.

Your solution would either be to open up the 0.200 area in your chamber by some small amount, maybe a thou or two, or have a different die made based on an accurately measured chamber casting or just by making sure the die maker will make that 0.200 area of the die about 0.002 smaller than the virgin case, or by trying Erik Cortina's expander die.

EC's expander die can be bought without a mandrel for $65 and be used to size the base of the case more to prevent clickers. It's an extra step, but should work. If it doesn't work, just sell the die. It's the easiest solution and one that wouldn't cost you much if it doesn't work.

 

[HighUintas]

To add to that, I bought one of EC's expander dies for my 284 chamber. My sizing die wasn't taking the base down any further than 0.502 after multiple firings. Ran it through the EC die and it goes down to 0.500. worked perfectly

 

[Article 4]

If your virgin loads didn't have clickers, and also after looking at your pictures, it's highly likely that your sizing die and chamber at the 0.200 line are not correctly dimensioned to prevent clickers with the brass you're using.

Saum and other fat bodies cases are notorious for it because they're harder to size that 0.200 line on the case and get adequate clearance in the chamber to prevent a clicker.

Alex Wheeler has said that whidden's dies, even when custom made, may not size the base enough to prevent it. At least that is the case with prc.

Your solution would either be to open up the 0.200 area in your chamber by some small amount, maybe a thou or two, or have a different die made based on an accurately measured chamber casting or just by making sure the die maker will make that 0.200 area of the die about 0.002 smaller than the virgin case, or by trying Erik Cortina's expander die.

EC's expander die can be bought without a mandrel for $65 and be used to size the base of the case more to prevent clickers. It's an extra step, but should work. If it doesn't work, just sell the die. It's the easiest solution and one that wouldn't cost you much if it doesn't work.

Big fan of using a custom die in this solution

 

[rootacres]

To add to that, I bought one of EC's expander dies for my 284 chamber. My sizing die wasn't taking the base down any further than 0.502 after multiple firings. Ran it through the EC die and it goes down to 0.500. worked perfectly

Thank you for the input. I’m going to order one and see if it helps/solves my problem.

 

[TaperPin]

Hopefully that works - we’ll all have our fingers crossed for you.