Charging bear/timed shooting drill

[Koda_]

7yds is too close to simulate a charging bear, you'll be getting mauled if that close.
Maybe 25yds is more realistic? Maybe starting with ones back to the bear to simulate surprise, rifle carried not at the ready like most hunting situations in hand on the side. At the buzzer, turn and fire.
A 2 second Par time to first shot might be a good metric, 4 second par time for 3 rounds total. Some experimenting might be needed.
Add another 1 second to par times if starting from a slung rifle.

 

[BLJ]

the consensus is that I’m vastly overestimating everyone’s capabilities as well as my own by saying that, and this is a smaller target and a lot more iterations than I’ve done, but I’m following along to see how everyone does. I’ll try a Jerry-rigged version in a little while and see how badly I need to put my foot in my mouth

I don’t consider it putting your foot in your mouth.
Consider it finding a personal baseline and improving from there.
Don’t ever think for a minute that it’s about being embarrassed. It’s about identifying strengths and weaknesses and improving from there.

With that being said, I think you are very much overestimating MY capabilities.

 

[Formidilosus]

7yds is too close to simulate a charging bear, you'll be getting mauled if that close.

It isn’t about simulating anything- it’s about measuring and comparing.

Maybe 25yds is more realistic? Maybe starting with ones back to the bear to simulate surprise, rifle carried not at the ready like most hunting situations in hand on the side. At the buzzer, turn and fire.
A 2 second Par time to first shot might be a good metric, 4 second par time for 3 rounds total. Some experimenting might be needed.
Add another 1 second to par times if starting from a slung rifle.

Changing times based on position is nothing but feel good’s- the target doesn’t care the position of the rifle/pistol, nor where you are looking.

The time is the time.

 

[Formidilosus]

A bear head looks really big, but the brain isn’t any wider than a snout. View attachment 664093

Hmmm. So a projectile that creates a wound that is 1 to 1.5 inches wide as it penetrates might not have as much “margin for error” as one that creates a 6” wide wound…?

Also, what is your experience with aggressive animals that get shot in the face, even if the projectile doesn’t penetrate the brain- do they tend to continue or do they tend to pause/stop?

 

[hereinaz]

7 yards........I'm guessing the bear would be on me before I could do much. Hip shot maybe. I did that on a bull elk one time in the timber. Shot him at 25 the first time, then he turned and ran up towards me to my left. Took a hip shot at about 8 yards that hit him quartering too me in his left shoulder.

The 8” target is at static 7 yards.

 

[B_Reynolds_AK]

Since we had the discussion regarding 9mm penetration on bears a while back, I'm electing to use this for the drill...
It’s not a bolt gun, but does it count if it’s my primary bear defense gun?


Edit: Obviously kidding, before anyone gets worked up. I’m flying to Kodiak this afternoon for a solo archery Mt Goat hunt, but taking the Glock 20 10mm instead. I still don’t know if that would actually be any better, but it’s easier to carry on the hip belt than an MP5k.

 

[gbflyer]

Hmmm. So a projectile that creates a wound that is 1 to 1.5 inches wide as it penetrates might not have as much “margin for error” as one that creates a 6” wide wound…?

Also, what is your experience with aggressive animals that get shot in the face, even if the projectile doesn’t penetrate the brain- do they tend to continue or do they tend to pause/stop?

What is your experience with aggressive animals that get shot in the face or anywhere else? Brown bears specifically. Do you guide brown bear hunting? Are you a resident of a state that has brown bears and allows hunting? Do you go on guided brown bear hunts as a customer? Have you stopped a charging brown bear at 7 yards with an M4 or a handgun? No need to answer with more well worded statements presented as questions please. Not saying you have or you haven’t. I have little doubt you can shoot and kill quite a few critters. This is not an attack.

 

[Formidilosus]

It’s not a bolt gun, but does it count if it’s my primary bear defense gun?

No. Only an SD would count.

 

[texag10]

Shooting shotgun hulls are a much better test. 7” is a gigantic target.

It’s a fun type of shooting - glad to see the interest in it.

You should do that and record it.

 

[Koda_]

It isn’t about simulating anything- it’s about measuring and comparing.




Changing times based on position is nothing but feel good’s- the target doesn’t care the position of the rifle/pistol, nor where you are looking.

The time is the time.

The "charging bear timed shooting drill" title of this thread suggests this is about simulating a charging bear attack. Otherwise whats the point?

Par times are common in shooting drills to simulate stress. So are shooting positions, even you mentioned position of the rifle so position is relevant.

I was just trying to help but if there is a different intent behind this idea besides charging bear self defense some clarity would be helpful.

 

[AZ_Hunter_2000]

I have taken a slightly different approach when going to to brown bear country. Partially it is to do this work at the house but also to not have to deal with grouchy ROs. I still did work in the field (charging bear targets at 30, 20, 10 yards and work my way in) but primarily relied upon this.

Items used: rifle, laser trainer (app/catridge), charging bear target

1) Set up target and training app
2) Shoulder rifle with laser training cartridge and turn away from the target
3) At the start "beep", acquire target while un-shouldering rifle and "chambering" the cartridge
4) Go for a "snap" shot on a frontal CNS-ish
4) Fire off two more "rounds" as fast as I can
5) Immediately redo steps 2-4 until I hit 10 rounds (counter for laser app)

Variants: change distance from 7-30 yards, sometimes rifle is considered "hot", sometimes I'll spin around several times before Step 3, use handgun(s) that I would take in the field, etc.

Lesson learned #1) I was not nearly as fast and accurate as I thought I'd be. Initially I'd need a 40-50 yard "heads up" to get a decent chance at a frontal CNS-ish shot. Without practice, dealing with a "just in case" scenario is a pipe dream (excluding Lady Luck intervening).
Lesson learned #2) Un-shouldering/un-holstering and target acquisition are the biggest consumers of time. Have to work these to reduce your times. Use natural point of aim rather than scope for target acquisition (worked well for me, may or many not work for others, may or may not be "proper" way of doing it).
Lesson learned #3) Still need actual field work with recoil and the joy of reloading under duress (time).
Lesson learned #4) Keep practicing until it becomes second nature and then practice more. Reference the story of the individual that used a Glock to kill a grizzly with zero warning.

This is dated but was one of my sessions for preparing for Kodiak just to provide a visual.

 

[TxLite]

Only counts if you pump it 10 times between shots.

Dude it’s a bear.

That’s at least 11, maybe 12 pumps.

 

[ARK_Ginger]

Was a nice sunny day so I decided to pop some primers. The only rifle that I really shot the drill correctly with is the tikka 223 since I shot it cold. I shot the 30-06 (with 220gr from S&B) last for the best chance of success. Also, this is a 7ish” circle from the other shooting drill of form’s so not a true 8” circle.

Here is the overall times. 1-6 in the order I shot them in.

Tikka 223 in a CTR stock and SWFA 6x.

Tikka 6.5 creed in bravo stock SWFA 3-15 shot on 3x

AR 10 home build with 16” proof stainless barrel, SWFA 6x, and shooting 180gr super x.

6mm ARC home build with 16” proof stainless with SWFA 3-9 shot on 3x. Was having some issues with a new lower so more holes than times.

AR15 in 556 14.5 P&W with SWFA 1-6 shot at 1x. Was trying to get some fast times and outshot my ability.

Last but not least is what I would consider an ‘average’ hunting rifle and what comes to mind for many for a ‘bear stopper.’ REM 700 in 30-06 with a bushnel 3-9 scope and see through rings. 220gr S&B shot at 3x on the scope.



Conclusion: I kinda suck at shooting, this should’ve been more of a runaway for the ARs especially since I wasn’t shooting it cold. Even still they were nearly a second faster.

Also, shooting a heavy recoiling rifle warmed up is as slow as shooting a light recoiling one cold for me.

 

[TaperPin]

Hmmm. So a projectile that creates a wound that is 1 to 1.5 inches wide as it penetrates might not have as much “margin for error” as one that creates a 6” wide wound…?

Also, what is your experience with aggressive animals that get shot in the face, even if the projectile doesn’t penetrate the brain- do they tend to continue or do they tend to pause/stop?

There are plenty of stories of bears turning around after a superficial face wound. That’s not something I’d want to rely on, but that’s just me.

Any gun is much more lethal than no gun. Someone should use the bear rifle they are comfortable with. A heavy, large caliber bonded bullet seems ideal to me - the spine extends somewhat straight back from the head - I like the idea of having enough mass to disrupt the spine if it’s hit in front of the shoulder or behind. I wouldn’t be as confident in a smaller fragment being able to do that.

 

[Ozarkansas]

Conclusion: I kinda suck at shooting

Unless I’m reading your times wrong you’re whooping me with that .223 Tikka, and none of those bolt gun times are slow. I’d be curious how many additional shots you could get off with the ARs in your average bolt gun 2-shot time.

 

[ARK_Ginger]

Unless I’m reading your times wrong you’re whooping me with that .223 Tikka, and none of those bolt gun times are slow. I’d be curious how many additional shots you could get off with the ARs in your average bolt gun 2-shot time.

That 223 tikka really is awesome to shoot, even better suppressed. Looking forward to your times.

I honestly should have tried it because it crossed my mind, being warmed up like that I’m thinking between 6-8 shots with the right sight presentation. It’s been too long since I shot my ar like that.

 

[TaperPin]

That’s awesome! Those 220 gr -06 loads are what a guy I met used to kill a marauding polar bear in an Alaskan village - every bit as big as a 10’ brown bear. Big medicine.

 

[Yukon Cornelius]

Stationary target!

I don’t carry a bolt. Or a lever. I use an AR platform…for this situation. Lol

 

[Chris_in_Idaho]

I don’t carry a bolt. Or a lever. I use an AR platform…for this situation. Lol

I thought you had a single action 6 shooter?


Hhmmm I guess you could have an AR.

 

[TaperPin]

You should do that and record it.

We used to run a few magazines through our iron sighted rifles every week during the salmon runs - I’d be quite slow now. After the 4th or 5th week of practice things feel much more natural and effective distances more than double.

We found the biggest source of issues was short stroking the action under pressure. I also developed a lump above the bicep where the recoil pad would hit if not on the shoulder correctly. Lol