Cell Cams and Pope & Young

[Bubblehide]

Do you spot and stalk hunt?

Dudebro, give it up already. Spot and stalk is done by being out in the field and finding the animal without a camera sending a picture to you and you knowing the location. In the latter, you get sent a picture, and then often leave the comfort of your camp or home, providing an unfair advantage.

 

[jakelogsdon]

Getting a (real-time) picture from a cell cam of a deer in the morning, hunting that set that afternoon and killing that deer? Fair chase or not?
I will not give up. You guys on your high horses need to understand this shit isn't black and white like you think.

Dudebro, give it up already. Spot and stalk is done by being out in the field and finding the animal without a camera sending a picture to you and you knowing the location. In the latter, you get sent a picture, and then often leave the comfort of your camp or home, providing an unfair advantage.

 

[Billy Goat]

You stating your opinion as fact is extremely arrogant. You might need to get over yourself bud. A cell camera is a tool it has allowed me to scout with less impact on the areas I and others hunt (which is 99 percent public land). It has helped me learn a lot about whitetails as well. One thing without a doubt a cell camera has never done is assist me in killing a deer.

This seems to be the answer. It allows you to scout with less impact. I know lots of guys who would prefer that trail cameras themselves were banned. One that you never need to go check and leave scent behind seems to me like it's going a little too far.

Again it's an organization, they can make their own rules. Nothing is forcing you to be a part of it. How do you feel about the letoff percent and no sight lights?

 

[Bubblehide]

Getting a (real-time) picture from a cell cam of a deer in the morning, hunting that set that afternoon and killing that deer? Fair chase or not?
I will not give up. You guys on your high horses need to understand this shit isn't black and white like you think.

Actually it is. If you want to use cameras, based on what you are saying, you would just not use cameras that send you the image; problem solved!

 

[jakelogsdon]

Actually it is. If you want to use cameras, based on what you are saying, you would just not use cameras that send you the image; problem solved!

So that is fair chase?

 

[jakelogsdon]

This seems to be the answer. It allows you to scout with less impact. I know lots of guys who would prefer that trail cameras themselves were banned. One that you never need to go check and leave scent behind seems to me like it's going a little too far.

Again it's an organization, they can make their own rules. Nothing is forcing you to be a part of it. How do you feel about the letoff percent and no sight lights?

Fair chase says nothing about scouting, it states "in the taking of animals". As far as percent let off goes I don't agree with it but its not under the fair chase section and they did modify the let off a few years ago to include bows with greater let off they just add and asterisk in the book. The lighted sight makes a little sense if you're concerned about people taking shots in questionable lighting. The P&Y board is a bunch of old school dinosaurs that are resistant to equipment changes.

 

[Billy Goat]

Fair chase says nothing about scouting, it states "in the taking of animals". As far as percent let off goes I don't agree with it but its not under the fair chase section and they did modify the let off a few years ago to include bows with greater let off they just add and asterisk in the book. The lighted sight makes a little sense if you're concerned about people taking shots in questionable lighting. The P&Y board is a bunch of old school dinosaurs that are resistant to equipment changes.

It's because they are trying to preserve the integrity of the records, try to allow an even playing field. They don't allow crossbows, still can't use I believe over 80 or 85% letoff. I don't have a problem with what they do. I have several animals that I had scored and never bothered to enter.
Other groups you can enter into, SCI for one.

I think when your hunting mature deer scouting is an integral part of the hunt. Hard to just luck into them. As long as you don't go hunt a stand because you just got emailed a picture you're still allowed to use them. I don't really understand the rant.

 

[jakelogsdon]

It's because they are trying to preserve the integrity of the records, try to allow an even playing field. They don't allow crossbows, still can't use I believe over 80 or 85% letoff. I don't have a problem with what they do. I have several animals that I had scored and never bothered to enter.
Other groups you can enter into, SCI for one.

I think when your hunting mature deer scouting is an integral part of the hunt. Hard to just luck into them. As long as you don't go hunt a stand because you just got emailed a picture you're still allowed to use them. I don't really understand the rant.

I didn't intend to go apeshit about this, I wanted to have a rational conversation about cell camera use and fair chase as described by Pope & Young. But when people started chiming in that they think this and that should be banned. I freakin got pissed. I'm tired of hearing that. That is not the answer. Hunting in general is always in danger of being over regulated and in all fairness straight up taken away from us. The division in the hunting community has gotten way out of control. Gun vs Bow. Bow vs Crossbow. Trad vs modern tackle. Dogs vs no dogs. Bait vs no bait. Camera vs no camera. I digress.

 

[Bubblehide]

That fact that several states have made such cameras illegal, with many more looking to do the same, speaks volumes to the view of fair chase in regards to cameras that transmit images.

 

[Billy Goat]

I didn't intend to go apeshit about this, I wanted to have a rational conversation about cell camera use and fair chase as described by Pope & Young. But when people started chiming in that they think this and that should be banned. I freakin got pissed. I'm tired of hearing that. That is not the answer. Hunting in general is always in danger of being over regulated and in all fairness straight up taken away from us. The division in the hunting community has gotten way out of control. Gun vs Bow. Bow vs Crossbow. Trad vs modern tackle. Dogs vs no dogs. Bait vs no bait. Camera vs no camera. I digress.

I can see your point, however don't you think there should be lines with stuff? I mean how do you feel about drones? Should they be allowed?

I don't use cell cams, I have thought about getting some but to me they take something away. I think I'd become too reliant on the technology. I enjoy the walks I take to go check my camera cards. I did push a buck out last year to a neighbor when I was checking a camera. 10:30 on a Tuesday morning. I didn't expect anyone to be hunting when I was checking it, had I been using cell cams down there I wouldn't have run that deer out. To me that is part of it. Like if you choose to run cameras you need to walk in and check them, not just sit back and let them do everything. However the same can be said for cameras at all.

The sport is evolving, I think as hunters we need to decide what we find appropriate. In my mind the cellular cameras have gone too far. I know guys who have used them to kill deer. They get a picture on a camera and go hunt a certain stand within a few hours of getting the picture, a stand they didn't have intentions of hunting that day until they got a picture. To me that's a little too much.

Take it in Western hunting, using them in areas where animals migrate such as mule deer and elk. Your using it as a scouting tool, but when you are waiting for it to send you information before you do anything or hunt a certain area, seems too much to me.

 

[jakelogsdon]

That fact that several states have made such cameras illegal, with many more looking to do the same, speaks volumes to the view of fair chase in regards to cameras that transmit images.

These are western states where water can be scarce. Use some common sense man.

 

[jakelogsdon]

I can see your point, however don't you think there should be lines with stuff? I mean how do you feel about drones? Should they be allowed?

I don't use cell cams, I have thought about getting some but to me they take something away. I think I'd become too reliant on the technology. I enjoy the walks I take to go check my camera cards. I did push a buck out last year to a neighbor when I was checking a camera. 10:30 on a Tuesday morning. I didn't expect anyone to be hunting when I was checking it, had I been using cell cams down there I wouldn't have run that deer out. To me that is part of it. Like if you choose to run cameras you need to walk in and check them, not just sit back and let them do everything. However the same can be said for cameras at all.

The sport is evolving, I think as hunters we need to decide what we find appropriate. In my mind the cellular cameras have gone too far. I know guys who have used them to kill deer. They get a picture on a camera and go hunt a certain stand within a few hours of getting the picture, a stand they didn't have intentions of hunting that day until they got a picture. To me that's a little too much.

Take it in Western hunting, using them in areas where animals migrate such as mule deer and elk. Your using it as a scouting tool, but when you are waiting for it to send you information before you do anything or hunt a certain area, seems too much to me.

I don't personally have any issues with using cell cameras. Like I've stated before, In 7 years of use.... heavy use. I have never been able to get a picture of a deer and just go kill it, likewise I've never heard of anyone going out and doing it like that either. I can't speak for cell camera use with western big game (eg: big bull at a water source). But I can say that for the most part, getting a picture of a whitetail and thinking that you can just go kill the animal is asinine. As far as the drone thing goes I'm pretty sure some states have already added some verbiage to their regs books making it illegal. I personally wouldn't ever use a drone to attempt to locate and kill something, but I also think people can be overly intimidated by new tech and immediately assume that it is unfair and it makes killing things easier. What I've seen leans more towards the opposite. The people who are going to sit at camp and wait for a picture are going to miss more opportunities at deer than the guy who just goes.

 

[Billy Goat]

I don't personally have any issues with using cell cameras. Like I've stated before, In 7 years of use.... heavy use. I have never been able to get a picture of a deer and just go kill it, likewise I've never heard of anyone going out and doing it like that either. I can't speak for cell camera use with western big game (eg: big bull at a water source). But I can say that for the most part, getting a picture of a whitetail and thinking that you can just go kill the animal is asinine. As far as the drone thing goes I'm pretty sure some states have already added some verbiage to their regs books making it illegal. I personally wouldn't ever use a drone to attempt to locate and kill something, but I also think people can be overly intimidated by new tech and immediately assume that it is unfair and it makes killing things easier. What I've seen leans more towards the opposite. The people who are going to sit at camp and wait for a picture are going to miss more opportunities at deer than the guy who just goes.

So what about this scenario, guy has say 7-8 cell camera's setup all over a property, usually when this deer is on this camera at say 5:30 am he goes past this other camera 6:45-7:15 on his way to bedding. Guy can't decide where he wants to hunt, let's the cameras give him that information instead.

I think it's a slippery slope. You have experience that says it's no different than any other trail cameras. I don't have personal experience with them but I know people who have killed specific deer because they went to hunt stands that they wouldn't have except they got a picture of a deer within a few hours of when they were leaving to hunt.

I have killed lots of deer because I have them on camera. Biggest buck I have killed disappeared completely on July 27. I hunted him all October with no sign of him. I checked my cameras on that farm on a Sunday (November 16), starting that Friday I had him on camera every day, Fri, Sat, and Sun. I went there that Monday afternoon and shot him. That's probably a similar result to what would have happened had I instantly gotten a picture of him on Friday, except I was actually out of town until that Sunday. I did still need to get down in there and check the camera without running him out.

For me personally I feel like the instant notification from trail cameras crosses my line of what's except able for hunting.

 

[jakelogsdon]

So what about this scenario, guy has say 7-8 cell camera's setup all over a property, usually when this deer is on this camera at say 5:30 am he goes past this other camera 6:45-7:15 on his way to bedding. Guy can't decide where he wants to hunt, let's the cameras give him that information instead.

I think it's a slippery slope. You have experience that says it's no different than any other trail cameras. I don't have personal experience with them but I know people who have killed specific deer because they went to hunt stands that they wouldn't have except they got a picture of a deer within a few hours of when they were leaving to hunt.

I have killed lots of deer because I have them on camera. Biggest buck I have killed disappeared completely on July 27. I hunted him all October with no sign of him. I checked my cameras on that farm on a Sunday (November 16), starting that Friday I had him on camera every day, Fri, Sat, and Sun. I went there that Monday afternoon and shot him. That's probably a similar result to what would have happened had I instantly gotten a picture of him on Friday, except I was actually out of town until that Sunday. I did still need to get down in there and check the camera without running him out.

For me personally I feel like the instant notification from trail cameras crosses my line of what's except able for hunting.

My experience with cell cameras is almost strictly designated to hunting public land whitetails. I think having a private farm with food plots and designated bedding areas and sanctuaries gives people a certain edge to patterning deer regardless if they are using cameras or not. I personally have never been able to pattern one single buck so well that I knew exactly what he was going to do when it comes to bedding or feeding and when they start chasing does, all bets are off anyway. This kind of goes in to my whole point. This topic isn't as simple as being black and white, there is a lot of gray area here and I just think it needs to be considered. As far as your scenario at the top goes, I would think that is specifically what P&Y was talking about, but if it were always that easy I would think we would have piles of dead animals as proof of its effectiveness. I just have a hard time seeing the difference between physically checking a card and seeing a deer coming to a pile of corn every day at 06:45. hunting him the next morning at said time and killing him. But if that's legal in your state its fair chase

 

[Billy Goat]

My experience with cell cameras is almost strictly designated to hunting public land whitetails. I think having a private farm with food plots and designated bedding areas and sanctuaries gives people a certain edge to patterning deer regardless if they are using cameras or not. I personally have never been able to pattern one single buck so well that I knew exactly what he was going to do when it comes to bedding or feeding and when they start chasing does, all bets are off anyway. This kind of goes in to my whole point. This topic isn't as simple as being black and white, there is a lot of gray area here and I just think it needs to be considered. As far as your scenario at the top goes, I would think that is specifically what P&Y was talking about, but if it were always that easy I would think we would have piles of dead animals as proof of its effectiveness. I just have a hard time seeing the difference between physically checking a card and seeing a deer coming to a pile of corn every day at 06:45. hunting him the next morning at said time and killing him. But if that's legal in your state its fair chase

Corn isn't considered fair chase by pope and young( incorrect, I thought that it was). And it's not legal here.


Patterning them on public is harder, mostly because it's bigger. Luckily most of the public ground around here doesn't have cell service, so I don't need to worry about it.

 

[jakelogsdon]

Can you cite your source for P&Y not allowing baiting. I'm still like 90 percent sure its allowed if its legal in your state

Corn isn't considered fair chase by pope and young( incorrect, I thought that it was). And it's not legal here.


Patterning them on public is harder, mostly because it's bigger. Luckily most of the public ground around here doesn't have cell service, so I don't need to worry about it.

 

[Billy Goat]

Can you cite your source for P&Y not allowing baiting. I'm still like 90 percent sure its allowed if its legal in your state

I looked it up after I typed that. I had corrected it a few minutes after I wrote it. See the parentheses.

I was really certain they didn't consider that fair chase, I'm wondering if that is something that changed or I have just always been mistaken.

 

[Bubblehide]

These are western states where water can be scarce. Use some common sense man.

I agree, you should be using some common sense, and realize what is coming down the pike; The alternative is that you will simply be caught by surprise.

 

[jakelogsdon]

I agree, you should be using some common sense, and realize what is coming down the pike; The alternative is that you will simply be caught by surprise.

Oh no.. should I sell all my Cell cameras now before it's too late?.... Nothing is "coming down the pike".. Ideally I just wanted to just have an adult conversation about using cell cams and their relationship with fair chase, not be scolded by some random chode. Thanks for chiming in though.

 

[jakelogsdon]

I looked it up after I typed that. I had corrected it a few minutes after I wrote it. See the parentheses.

I was really certain they didn't consider that fair chase, I'm wondering if that is something that changed or I have just always been mistaken.

I've read a few times over the years when its been brought up and people have pushed against baiting but both B&C and P&Y have taken the same stance for a while on that.