Cartridge for youth

[Pharmseller]

He lives in Florida. Small white tail and hogs. He’s a short skinny kid but I want it to be something he can shoot as he grows

How far do you think he’s likely to shoot?




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[Marshfly]

How far do you think he’s likely to shoot?




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Great question. Missed the Florida part. But a full load 223 or 6ARC is still a better choice than a reduced 7mm.


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[Pharmseller]

In my opinion that’s marginal and not nearly enough margin thus my statement earlier.


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Let‘s see what the OP has to say about likely shot distance. I have zero experience with hunting conditions in Florida, it might be that a long shot is 150 yards. In that case the RR factory stuff would be more than enough.

I still support the .223 option with 77 TMK or 75 ELDM.




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[Marshfly]

Ammo cost alone breaks any “tie” to the 223.


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[Mk44]

.243 has been around for a long time. It's a fine cartridge for a young man.
Some guys still hunt with .243. Nothing wrong with it.

 

[Macintosh]

From what I have seen the muzzle blast and concussion is at least half of the "recoil" that kids shy away from. Take away the muzzle blast and any gun is a lot nicer to shoot for anyone, even without changing recoil. For this reason I'd 1) avoid a brake at all costs, 2) get a suppressor if you can, and 3) go for the lightest-recoiling cartridge you have confidence in.

I've had excellent results with the hornady reduced recoil loads using the SST bullets in both 7mm08 and 30-06 on deer and antelope --all definitive bang/flops out to about 220 yards. I dont shy away from these at all and I would not hesitate to use them myself within the range limitation where they'll drop below expansion velocity. 200 yards is more than plenty for a kid anyway, at least for a while.
That said, I think a 7mm08 is the wrong choice unless you handload. Full-power loads in a 7mm-08, when shot out of a light gun, are much too punishing for a young kid--to me thats a total no-go. Your kid might do fine with it, but it's equally likely (more likely?) that they hate it, are scared of it, and end up not liking to shoot--not what you want. I have also had a really tough time finding ammo (even online at times), and I would highly prefer a cartridge where the ability of a kid to shoot it comfortably isnt contingent on finding exactly the right brand and model of ammo. If you want a mid-sized cartridge similar to a 7-08 I would go for a 6.5cm which I have found exponentially better ammo availability for as well as a wider variety of ammo available.

Personally I dont see any reason to go larger than a 243/6mm. People have been killing deer with these for many, many decades, i dont think there is any legitimate question that it performs reliably on deer sized critters, and a variety of bullet loadings are readily available for it.

 

[Swamp Fox]

He lives in Florida. Small white tail and hogs. He’s a short skinny kid but I want it to be something he can shoot as he grows

Bring back the .257 Roberts!

I'd take the Bob all day over .243 as I got used to shooting rifles, if ammo availability weren't a factor. I also like it a bit better for hogs for a youngster, but it is a *little* step up from .243 in recoil.

Some good choices on this thread ... I just thought I'd throw in one over-looked option that could be right for a certain kind of hunter.

 

[eric1115]

From what I have seen the muzzle blast and concussion is at least half of the "recoil" that kids shy away from. Take away the muzzle blast and any gun is a lot nicer to shoot for anyone, even without changing recoil. For this reason I'd 1) avoid a brake at all costs, 2) get a suppressor if you can, and 3) go for the lightest-recoiling cartridge you have confidence in.

I've had excellent results with the hornady reduced recoil loads using the SST bullets in both 7mm08 and 30-06 on deer and antelope --all definitive bang/flops out to about 220 yards. I dont shy away from these at all and I would not hesitate to use them myself within the range limitation where they'll drop below expansion velocity. 200 yards is more than plenty for a kid anyway, at least for a while.
That said, I think a 7mm08 is the wrong choice unless you handload. Full-power loads in a 7mm-08, when shot out of a light gun, are much too punishing for a young kid--to me thats a total no-go. Your kid might do fine with it, but it's equally likely (more likely?) that they hate it, are scared of it, and end up not liking to shoot--not what you want. I have also had a really tough time finding ammo (even online at times), and I would highly prefer a cartridge where the ability of a kid to shoot it comfortably isnt contingent on finding exactly the right brand and model of ammo. If you want a mid-sized cartridge similar to a 7-08 I would go for a 6.5cm which I have found exponentially better ammo availability for as well as a wider variety of ammo available.

Personally I dont see any reason to go larger than a 243/6mm. People have been killing deer with these for many, many decades, i dont think there is any legitimate question that it performs reliably on deer sized critters, and a variety of bullet loadings are readily available for it.

Even if you do handload, I've never found the 120 SST projectiles available for sale. The 120 Nosler BT is not a great substitute; it's much harder and needs more velocity to upset. It's also relatively expensive and has spotty availability. I stubbornly spent more years than I should have trying to make a 7mm-08 work well for my oldest son before seeing the .223/77TMK light.

 

[Rich M]

there are hundreds of photos on this site completely disproving your small hole theory for the 223. in fact, 223/77 TMK holes tend to be amongst the largest holes photographed around here.

That’s fine. I dont own a 223/556 and dont feel a need to buy one.

You are free to do as you choose.

 

[black dawg]

250 yards.

That‘s a long poke for a new shooter.




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A lot of ifs involved, but I have found with the additional practice that the kids can make any shot that I can from prone position. Certain areas we hunt its just a far more controlled and relaxed situation to have a few hundred yards involved.

A couple weeks ago spotted deer, got down, I ranged and dialed the scope, and flipped down the bipod. 12 year old daughter got her position set up and was ready to shoot before I was ready to spot. A little over 400 yards. Ended up not shooting this deer, and same story on another deer that was a little closer. She watched the deer drop at the shot, through the scope.

We did alot of practice this summer where I helped very little as far as position building, and it has amazed me how quickly they learn.

As far as the reduced recoil stuff, as long as the bullet used is well within its velocity window, i see no trouble with it.

 

[Marshfly]

A lot of ifs involved, but I have found with the additional practice that the kids can make any shot that I can from prone position. Certain areas we hunt its just a far more controlled and relaxed situation to have a few hundred yards involved.

A couple weeks ago spotted deer, got down, I ranged and dialed the scope, and flipped down the bipod. 12 year old daughter got her position set up and was ready to shoot before I was ready to spot. A little over 400 yards.

We did alot of practice this summer where I helped very little as far as position building, and it has amazed me how quickly they learn.

As far as the reduced recoil stuff, as long as the bullet used is well within its velocity window, i see no trouble with it.

Agreed. It's pretty easy to get a new shooter ringing steel at over 500 yards with a light recoiling setup prone if you teach them correctly.

And when you practice over 400 yards often, 300 and in feels like shooting in your yard.

Edit: and kids love shooting stuff they can barely see with their naked eyes. I will bring one of my kid's friends and let them spot hits and misses for each other with the spotter. They have a blast.

 

[Ben RT]

223 is where I'd be looking (especially if he's on the smaller side). Maybe .350 legend if 223 isn't legal where you hunt.

A few years ago I had my son shooting a 7mm-08, and it took him a couple years to successfully harvest (looking back, I was an idiot and had him overgunned and flinching). He's since shot 3 muleys with a 6.5CM (he's also man-sized). With my 1st daughter (very slight build) I decided to put an AR on a tripod to help her hold the weight. Collapsible stock was a huge plus. To make the story short I was getting ready to coach her along on her first opportunity at a muley doe and she dropped it dead-in-its-tracks at 190yds before I could say anything. She wasn't scared of it AT ALL (recoil, weight, size, etc were all non-issues to her) and shot placement was beautiful as a result. She used 75gr Hornady BTHP handloads that I had developed (24gr Varget) long before I knew about the Sierra TMKs. It's exciting stuff... but I'll stop there.

 

[kkp005]

What stock is this, and what is the minimum lop?

It’s a mdt chasis with just a standard magpul ctr AR collapsing stock. Not sure on the minimum but it’s short enough for my tiny 38 lb 6 year old daughter to shoot

 

[gatr]

We have some long shoot opportunities, but that will come later. For the time being we’ll keep him under 250

 

[bliner]

I was hesitant about my boys using 223 to hunt deer a couple years ago, but they have had great results with the 62g federal fusion. My youngest son is also small for his age, so an ar has been great in that regard as well with the adjustable stock.

 

[gatr]

Lots of.223 fans here. I’ve never hunted with one

 

[Pharmseller]

Lots of.223 fans here. I’ve never hunted with one

This year was my first season hunting deer with a .223. One shot on a Mulie buck, 75 gr ELDM, 475 yards, steady rest. He never heard the shot.




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[Rich M]

How many deer have you shot or seen shot with the 77 grain TMK?

It's a different thing altogether than the old .223 strategy (mono for maximum penetration/exit does make a small hole indeed and slow kills).

I've been more impressed with the kills produced by 77TMK and 108ELDM (at 6ARC velocity) than I ever was by light bullets in a 7mm-08.

I would 100% prefer .223/TMK wound channel over .300BO or .350 Legend.

100% agree on muzzle brakes.

That’s fine. You do you, i’ll do me. I’m old, got 45 deer seasons behind me and not looking for the next best thing.

Been playing w .35s for a long time now and enjoy those. If it aint broke…

 

[eric1115]

That’s fine. You do you, i’ll do me. I’m old, got 45 deer seasons behind me and not looking for the next best thing.

Been playing w .35s for a long time now and enjoy those. If it aint broke…

I get that. You definitely don't have to change to make me happy .

Giving advice to others based on flawed data though is why I chimed in. It seemed like an opinion not based on experience with the option you were recommending people avoid.

 

[Nine Banger]

It’s a mdt chasis with just a standard magpul ctr AR collapsing stock. Not sure on the minimum but it’s short enough for my tiny 38 lb 6 year old daughter to shoot

Thank you for sharing this. I have 2 small lefties coming up and I'm looking for something like this, or I'm going to get a walnut t3 stock to chop up and add an adustable comb too.