Cardio vs Strength Training

[P Carter]

You're confusing strength with efficiency. Strength requires progressive overload. Unless you're adding weight while you're running you're not getting stronger.

On your definition, would someone be getting stronger if they can do more reps with the same weight?

If not, then I suppose I do indeed misunderstand strength. If so, then I think running makes you stronger. Otherwise, I suppose your arguments conflict with my experience.

 

[Poser]

Surely you're not saying that a trail runner does not gain strength relevant to trail running while trail running. (OK, so technically it's "while resting after trail running," so long as proper recovery and nutrition are proper.) Now, perhaps you could get stronger with strength training. But you do gain strength by doing the activity. I do agree with you on training versus just exercising, for what it's worth.

A trail runner will gain enough strength to trail run the terrain they run on. New runners off the couch will often gain a lot of strength very quickly (because they are starting with only enough strength to walk around) but it will plateau once they can achieve the necessary force production. Once you’ve achieved enough strength in your legs to run the angles you need to run, you’ll have to supplement some strength training *if in fact you desire to be stronger. Not to say that you have to Strength train if you want to be a good runner (because many great runners do not and have no interest in being stronger than they need to be to run) but running unto itself doesn’t result in *relatively* strong legs since the stress is a combination of body weight + gravity and it’s doesn’t require a full range of motion and the only way to increase the amount of required force is to run ever steeper angles which is a finite option.

The body adapts to the forces required of it, but you don’t get any bonus gains out of that scenario. If you want your legs to get progressively stronger, you’ll have to apply an increased amount of stress.

 

[Fox30buck]

Strength training has been huge for me. I cant run a lot anymore so my cardio consists of long hikes with a weighted pack. Did the trick for me in Alaska last year. Good luck

 

[P Carter]

Poser, this is very helpful, thanks. I don't disagree with you with that further explanation, though perhaps with the addition that adding distance and intensity (particularly when running downhill) does seem to add strength as well.

 

[deerkiller]

That’s not really how it works.
You don’t get stronger while doing an activity. You get stronger as a result of recovering from an activity or stressful event. The reason that strength training works better in isolation from conditioning is because you can apply more stress this way than you can under cardiovascular duress. Because you can apply more stress means that you can move more weight than you can other wise and, as result, get stronger during your recovery windows over a plane of time.

Just because your heart rate is up and your muscles are pumping doesn’t mean anything in terms of training value unless you capitalize upon the recovery window and then come back and do a slightly more stressful event. This is the difference between training (a systemic path to improvement: faster, stronger, longer through increased volume and intensity) vs exercise (ie breaking a sweat).

one actually LOSES muscle tone in the upper body when running while the legs don't really get much of a workout due to the human brain / body seeking the easiest way to accomplish that goal - weight training, done correctly, gives a complete workout complete with stretching and flexibility movements

 

[Coach Chris]

On your definition, would someone be getting stronger if they can do more reps with the same weight?

If not, then I suppose I do indeed misunderstand strength. If so, then I think running makes you stronger. Otherwise, I suppose your arguments conflict with my experience.

There's no progressive overload in running
Increasing reps with a stagnant load doesn't necessarily increase strength.

 

[Coach Chris]

Poser, this is very helpful, thanks. I don't disagree with you with that further explanation, though perhaps with the addition that adding distance and intensity (particularly when running downhill) does seem to add strength as well.

No it just increases efficiency.

 

[deerkiller]

Surely you're not saying that a trail runner does not gain strength relevant to trail running while trail running. (OK, so technically it's "while resting after trail running," so long as proper recovery and nutrition are proper.) Now, perhaps you could get stronger with strength training. But you do gain strength by doing the activity. I do agree with you on training versus just exercising, for what it's worth.

Poser IS correct, it is in the RECOVERY PHASE that muscle strength and stamina is gained, some also build muscle size due to natural physiology of the individual - Otherwise WHY would there be workout days and REST days ?

 

[deerkiller]

Cardio works best for me. I think it all depends on the individual.

to a limited degree that's true but not from a "sports physiology" perspective - I live near and work nearly every day in Eugene, OR (perhaps you've heard of the running history and fervor for running that exists there) I see it every single day all around me - take a look at the world's top sprinters and how they train, it tells a bunch

 

[P Carter]

When I run roads in the winter, the muscle mass in my leg decreases noticeably, as does muscle tone. When I start running trails, the muscle mass and tone increases significantly. When I push up volume and intensity, particularly focusing on downhills, the muscle mass and tone increases and then stays steady. Running roads, my hiking w/backpack is very weak. Running trails moderately, it's OK. Running higher volume and a focus on intensity and downhills, it gets easier. I relate all those experiences to gains in strength. (Leg strength, obviously. No one, including me, is advocating that running increases upper body strength.) I feel best when I'm at 30ish miles a week, trying to hit 3-5,000 feet of vertical, doing strength work 2-3 days a week and then decreasing mileage and adding 2 hiking days a week as the season advances. Although I'm noticeably slower after that, and have to pick that back up in the wintertime with flat-and-fast running. All very interesting. Those are my observations, I appreciate the back and forth.

 

[Poser]

one actually LOSES muscle tone in the upper body when running while the legs don't really get much of a workout due to the human brain / body seeking the easiest way to accomplish that goal - weight training, done correctly, gives a complete workout complete with stretching and flexibility movements

Yeah, your body will tend to make itself efficient for doing a task if you do a whole lot of that one task. Look at Tour De France racers or competitive long distance runners, for example: their bodies are super efficient at those singular tasks, but not necessarily well adapted for other sports or even practical day to day life. In some sense, you could say that athletes at the extreme ends of the spectrum be it Tour De France racers or competitive Sumo wrestlers (heck, even NFL lineman) probably sacrifice a degree of Of overall health for the sake of competing at the highest level of the their sport, whether that’s being too weak to stir a pot of chili (I read about a competitive runner who admitted he was too weak to stir chili in peak competitive running shape) and thus easily injured or just too large to be practical and a heart that struggles dealing with your size.

I agree that if a person just wants to “be in shape” or “be healthy” and is not particularly worried training for a specific sport or activity, then general strength training is the best thing they can do and the only “exercise” they need -not running, not walking, not Orange Theory, not Peloton, but basic Barbell lifts: strong legs, strong back, strong upper body, strong bones, effective ranges of motion... you know, so you can get up from the toilet, walk your dog, shovel snow, play with the grandkids, pull tuneups from the garden, pour concrete, avoid back pain etc. if your body is weak, you can expect a reduced quality of life and the inability to perform very practical tasks without pain or discomfort. If your muscles are already strong, getting in shape for a specific sport or activity is a much expedited process and It just straight up pays exponential dividends to spend at least some portion of the year in the gym getting stronger.

 

[JohnnyB]

to a limited degree that's true but not from a "sports physiology" perspective - I live near and work nearly every day in Eugene, OR (perhaps you've heard of the running history and fervor for running that exists there) I see it every single day all around me - take a look at the world's top sprinters and how they train, it tells a bunch

It tells a lot about how sprinters train. Not endurance athletes.

Endurance training decreases fast twitch muscle in exchange for slow twitch.

There is no free lunch. If you train endurance you will lose some strength, if you focus only on weights you will have gained strength. Do you hunt more like a sumo wrestler, sprinter, nfl lineman or a hiker, climber, jogger? Different energy systems are used for these activities. You have to decide where on the scale you want to be but you can’t one end of the scale and expect to be your best at both.

 

[deerkiller]

When I run roads in the winter, the muscle mass in my leg decreases noticeably, as does muscle tone. When I start running trails, the muscle mass and tone increases significantly. When I push up volume and intensity, particularly focusing on downhills, the muscle mass and tone increases and then stays steady. Running roads, my hiking w/backpack is very weak. Running trails moderately, it's OK. Running higher volume and a focus on intensity and downhills, it gets easier. I relate all those experiences to gains in strength. (Leg strength, obviously. No one, including me, is advocating that running increases upper body strength.) I feel best when I'm at 30ish miles a week, trying to hit 3-5,000 feet of vertical, doing strength work 2-3 days a week and then decreasing mileage and adding 2 hiking days a week as the season advances. Although I'm noticeably slower after that, and have to pick that back up in the wintertime with flat-and-fast running. All very interesting. Those are my observations, I appreciate the back and forth.

OK, I get that BUT what happens when you've hiked all those killer miles hunting (efficiently), kill that monster bull and then have to huk it around to field dress it (because it died in a hell hole you actually had prayed you'd never find yourself in) and you're by your lonesome ? Personally, after done what I've described so many times "I" think I'm NUTS, I'll take the overall weight training for general strength, flexibility, contorted lifting ability, endurance after having expended all reserves and so on as a wise way to train for the hunt - you want to challenge yourself ? grab a pair of 100 lb dumbells and walk around the parking lot a few times, THAT will make your legs gain strength after a short while of smart on/off work out days

 

[deerkiller]

It tells a lot about how sprinters train. Not endurance athletes.

Endurance training decreases fast twitch muscle in exchange for slow twitch.

There is no free lunch. If you train endurance you will lose some strength, if you focus only on weights you will have gained strength. Do you hunt more like a sumo wrestler, sprinter, nfl lineman or a hiker, climber, jogger? Different energy systems are used for these activities. You have to decide where on the scale you want to be but you can’t one end of the scale and expect to be your best at both.

my intended point ….. you want to run marathons for a hobby ? that's cool, to each their own - hunting elk in the back country is a consummate test of all abilities, not just endurance, not just brute strength - train accordingly my fellow hunters

 

[*zap*]

Farmers walk is an awesome exercise especially if done with good form and foot placement. Chest up, shoulders back, slow deliberate walk while bending the knee and mid foot strike.

 

[Inconstancy]

not underst

not understanding your breakdown of this - if a person has "more" lean muscle mass and is in "good" health in terms medically of course that person will utilize more oxygen ? it's not the volume of oxygen demand (but that is limited to some degree by elevation and humidity), it's the efficiency of that oxygen used per amount presented to the lungs - "exercise" is simply that, exercise - It's the efficiency (or level of physical conditioning) that makes all the difference - a power lifter will have "conditioning" better allowing a max burst of energy to complete a lift, then a rest period immediately following (recovery) The speed of said "recovery" is the key to optimal conditioning, that's why interval training technique has been found to be so successful BUT each of us has an optimal rate for that equation to work best - body make-up is subjective as shown by football players gaining large amounts of "playing weight" while actively engaged, then losing after they quit - look at "Gronk" ….. is he in better "shape" now or when playing ?

L. You answered your own question.

 

[Middleofnowhere]

Great thread.
When I trained to swim long distance, I was in the water two hours a day. Endurance and efficiency is what it was all about.
When my coach started having me do “repetitious sprints” and I started hitting the weights, that’s when speed increased.

In life, you can fake intelligence and a lot of other things. Speed and Strength are two things you can’t fake...

 

[MallardSX2]

I was a skinny kid growing up and still a pretty skinny guy. I remember asking my dad when I was a kid about how to get big muscles and my dad said "No amount of muscles will ever make up for brains in the long run"

Insert Cardio in place of brains in this case....

If you cant catch your breath, youll fail hunting the mountains every time. You may be able to pick up a whole elk 1/4 and cart it off the hill but if you cant catch your breath then whats the point?

 

[Inconstancy]

I was a skinny kid growing up and still a pretty skinny guy. I remember asking my dad when I was a kid about how to get big muscles and my dad said "No amount of muscles will ever make up for brains in the long run"

Insert Cardio in place of brains in this case....

If you cant catch your breath, youll fail hunting the mountains every time. You may be able to pick up a whole elk 1/4 and cart it off the hill but if you cant catch your breath then whats the point?

It's obvious there are a few folks on here with extensive knowledge about "fitness ", "cardio ","strength ", "vo2 max" and physiology in general but it's still a hunting forum. The point is you need to have enough "strength " including "muscle" and "cardio" and "mental"to get in, get the game, and get out. No reason to over complicate the whole matter getting bogged down in terminology and details. Put some weight on your back and hike some "hills".

 

[Inconstancy]

I was a skinny kid growing up and still a pretty skinny guy. I remember asking my dad when I was a kid about how to get big muscles and my dad said "No amount of muscles will ever make up for brains in the long run"

Insert Cardio in place of brains in this case....

If you cant catch your breath, youll fail hunting the mountains every time. You may be able to pick up a whole elk 1/4 and cart it off the hill but if you cant catch your breath then whats the point?

Totally agree with this.