Can you change your username??

[WCS]

"You are also referring to the New Testament which itself has been translated into many languages and various cultures for sure, but the message has never changed- ever." - While the overall intent of the message may not have deviated much, the text certainly has changed. Not all of the books of the gospel present in the Codex Sinaiticus are present in current iterations of the bible, and many verses have not survived the transition from ancient to modern texts.



"Adam is type of Jesus as well as a real dude who lived in the garden, the first ever created dude." - Are you referring to Y-chromosomal Adam? Or perhaps mitochondrial Eve? Just curious since there has been a great deal of brilliant research done with mitochondrial DNA in explaining the process of human evolution. For those of us of European descent, Svante Paabo has traced many genetic markers present in the genome of Neanderthals that are present in peoples of European and Asian ancestry, such as fairer skin, red hair, and more heavily keratinized skin. I've had the opportunity to participate in a couple of studies using mitochondrial DNA to trace the evolution of ruminant herbivores and it's astounding the insight it provides into tracing the evolution of species.

"Moses was a type of Jesus as well as a real dude. He delivered a people, just like Jesus has." - While Moses may have existed, a number of historical aspects of the old testament have been called into question based on archaeological evidence. Archaeology isn't my field, but the work of Israel Finkelstein or Zahi Hawass certainly casts the story of the exodus from Egypt into doubt.

In the end, your beliefs are no more or less valid than mine, or people of other faiths.

 

[Jason Snyder]

It takes faith to believe in a God you can’t see. It takes faith to not believe in a god, and believe in spontaneous organization of life.

I’m not saying anyone is wrong for not believing in God. I didn’t make the rules some find exclusive. I didn’t choose a life of faith as a way of rationalizing my way through life.

God does not promise life free from grief, hardship, and horror. He does promise to be tight there in the thick of it, with you through all if your struggles.

As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.


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[Rmauch20]

Hmm so God gets the blame for what is wrong.
oops sorry, when referring to the Christians "God" you used a small "g" god, but others got the capitol. Maybe, using your theology, it was mohameds god or odins god causing these things ?

Maybe it is the devil who comes to kill steal and destroy.
God declared "in this world you will have tribulation, but be of good cheer for I have over come this world"
This world is full of bad things for good people and bad people alike.
But this world is not all there is.
Paul said, "I consider the sufferings of this age, nothing compared to the glory that awaits me"

I used the bible and theology, only because you chose to bring your own theology into this conversation.
Fair is fair.

I don’t blame any of the gods (is that better, didn’t mean to disrespect anyones imaginary friends). What I said was if anyone of them is real they don’t care.
Man created religion because he realized it could be used to control others. Blame when he fails (it was in gods hands). Allow him do some pretty terrible things in name of their god.

 

[mfllood3800]

"You are also referring to the New Testament which itself has been translated into many languages and various cultures for sure, but the message has never changed- ever." - While the overall intent of the message may not have deviated much, the text certainly has changed. Not all of the books of the gospel present in the Codex Sinaiticus are present in current iterations of the bible, and many verses have not survived the transition from ancient to modern texts.



"Adam is type of Jesus as well as a real dude who lived in the garden, the first ever created dude." - Are you referring to Y-chromosomal Adam? Or perhaps mitochondrial Eve? Just curious since there has been a great deal of brilliant research done with mitochondrial DNA in explaining the process of human evolution. For those of us of European descent, Svante Paabo has traced many genetic markers present in the genome of Neanderthals that are present in peoples of European and Asian ancestry, such as fairer skin, red hair, and more heavily keratinized skin. I've had the opportunity to participate in a couple of studies using mitochondrial DNA to trace the evolution of ruminant herbivores and it's astounding the insight it provides into tracing the evolution of species.

"Moses was a type of Jesus as well as a real dude. He delivered a people, just like Jesus has." - While Moses may have existed, a number of historical aspects of the old testament have been called into question based on archaeological evidence. Archaeology isn't my field, but the work of Israel Finkelstein or Zahi Hawass certainly casts the story of the exodus from Egypt into doubt.

In the end, your beliefs are no more or less valid than mine, or people of other faiths.

Search all day on the glorious inter net
You will find research that supports any side you choose

But dont be at the mercy of the information high way hitch hiking along thru life

Use your own mind to look around and decide

Information is good, but it isn't always accurate
And often is fuel to an agenda

Some say this about the bible, but these are usually the ones who look for information to sustain doubt

Our are angry with the way their life has gone and need a blame target

Many archeological finds verify the evidence of the exodus
In due time every eye Will see

At that time will your opinion change, or will you refuse, simply because you have lived a life to prove the bible wrong.

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[Warren1726]

We should all be grateful for living in the United States of America There are many countries in this world where every one of us commenting on this thread would be summarily executed or imprisoned. I don’t believe in any God of a religion per say, but I believe in freedom of religion and the freedom from it. I also believe this is the best forum on the web!

 

[woods89]

It takes faith to believe in a God you can’t see. It takes faith to not believe in a god, and believe in spontaneous organization of life.

I’m not saying anyone is wrong for not believing in God. I didn’t make the rules some find exclusive. I didn’t choose a life of faith as a way of rationalizing my way through life.

God does not promise life free from grief, hardship, and horror. He does promise to be tight there in the thick of it, with you through all if your struggles.

As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.


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Very eloquently put. Agree 100%.

 

[5MilesBack]

I find it interesting when people fight against Christianity by using an example of an organized religion that has absolutely nothing to do with being a born-again Christian. The two have nothing to do with each other. There are only two kinds of people in the world today.......the saved and the lost, and both are still sinners. It's just that the saved have accepted God's free gift through His son as the payment for their sins. So where does religion and what's commonly referred to by many as (the church) come into play with that? It doesn't.

 

[maninthemaze]

I have always been a doubter of religion. I'm someone who wants to see proof of everything. If this was a court of law and you had to convince someone that there was a God, could you do it without using the bible? Barring that one piece of "evidence" would make it an impossible case to prove. I don't consider myself an atheist. Atheists believe there is no God. I'm more of an agnostic. I'm sitting on the fence waiting for proof one way or the other. Unfortunately, the side to believe there is no God is getting stronger and stronger. Here's an example....

Years ago, me and my soon to be wife went off to Gatlinburg, TN to get married. It was a very small ceremony, with her 8 year old daughter as a witness. It was perfect in my eyes. As the years go by, it really upset her that she could not participate in communion at her Catholic church. I went to church with her, but only out of curiosity. It seemed very cult like to me because I was an outsider whose only time to attend church was when I was drug there by my mother. Dad still went fishing. Either way, my wife wanted to get married in the church. So we meet with the pastor 5 or 6 times and had to attend a class. The class was called "once more with love. In that class was an elderly couple. They were both around 75 to 80 years old. Both of their previous spouses had passed away. The lady asked the teacher what an annulment was. And after the explanation, she asked why the Catholic church was making her get an annulment for her first marriage. A marriage that lasted 50 years and ended when her spouse passed away. The teacher said that was part of being Catholic. That to get married again, the Catholic Diocese would have to declare her previous marriage null from the beginning. The old lady kept saying "but I fulfilled my obligation, til death do you part, he died. It was a great marriage that left me with 3 kids and now 7 grandkids. Why would I want to declare that marriage null from the beginning?

I guess my point is, someone needs to make a case and prove to me that there is a God and they can't use the bible as the only evidence.

Don't get me wrong, I think the bible is a great set of guidelines on how to live your life. I try and be as kind and considerate as possible. I don't break laws and I'm, what I would consider, a decent human being. My take on the bible and I've read most of it, is that it's the same thing I learned in kindergarten. Treat others as you would like to be treated.

Thanks to the moderators who have left this thread going. And thanks to all the posters who have kept it civil. In my neck of the woods, even civil questions about religion don't have good outcomes.

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[Jason Snyder]

Catholic ritual is an example of a man made religion, IMO.


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[Rmauch20]

I’m sure for a small donation that could’ve been taken care of.

 

[Jason Snyder]

I’m sure for a small donation that could’ve been taken care of.

You are probably/possibly correct. See my above post. There is no need to satisfy mans requirements. A relationship with God, and acceptance of forgiveness is free.


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[WCS]

Search all day on the glorious inter net
You will find research that supports any side you choose - I didn't make assumptions about your education and background, so why would you assume that I'm just nitpicking off the internet? I've spent a lot of time and money studying biology striving to provide insightful research in the hope of developing a good career. Given that some of my work has dealt with the evolution of certain traits in ruminant species I occasionally run into arguments with people who try dismiss this research. As a result I've done my best to educate myself on their beliefs and why they might see fit to criticize. For me this has included reading most of the current iterations of the bible, Torah and Qu'ran, and even reading some of the early latin versions of the Catholic bible. Since I'm a voracious reader I've also read many books on archaeology in Europe and the middle East since I'm fascinated by the process of human evolution. No offense, but kind of a dick move on your part to assume that I just copied and pasted a few things off the internet.


"But dont be at the mercy of the information high way hitch hiking along thru life

Use your own mind to look around and decide

Information is good, but it isn't always accurate
And often is fuel to an agenda

Some say this about the bible, but these are usually the ones who look for information to sustain doubt

Our are angry with the way their life has gone and need a blame target

Many archeological finds verify the evidence of the exodus
In due time every eye Will see

At that time will your opinion change, or will you refuse, simply because you have lived a life to prove the bible wrong." - I haven't lived my life trying to prove the bible wrong, as I said above, I've tried to be the best biologist I can and the best me. In this argument I'm able to reference this research because I've read the journal articles and books that these researchers have published, not just pulled snippets off the internet. If you've researched these works I'd appreciate your opinion on them, but if you haven't I'd prefer that you not make assumptions about their research and about me as a person.

 

[Bbell12]

I have always been a doubter of religion. I'm someone who wants to see proof of everything. If this was a court of law and you had to convince someone that there was a God, could you do it without using the bible? Barring that one piece of "evidence" would make it an impossible case to prove. I don't consider myself an atheist. Atheists believe there is no God. I'm more of an agnostic. I'm sitting on the fence waiting for proof one way or the other. Unfortunately, the side to believe there is no God is getting stronger and stronger. Here's an example....

Years ago, me and my soon to be wife went off to Gatlinburg, TN to get married. It was a very small ceremony, with her 8 year old daughter as a witness. It was perfect in my eyes. As the years go by, it really upset her that she could not participate in communion at her Catholic church. I went to church with her, but only out of curiosity. It seemed very cult like to me because I was an outsider whose only time to attend church was when I was drug there by my mother. Dad still went fishing. Either way, my wife wanted to get married in the church. So we meet with the pastor 5 or 6 times and had to attend a class. The class was called "once more with love. In that class was an elderly couple. They were both around 75 to 80 years old. Both of their previous spouses had passed away. The lady asked the teacher what an annulment was. And after the explanation, she asked why the Catholic church was making her get an annulment for her first marriage. A marriage that lasted 50 years and ended when her spouse passed away. The teacher said that was part of being Catholic. That to get married again, the Catholic Diocese would have to declare her previous marriage null from the beginning. The old lady kept saying "but I fulfilled my obligation, til death do you part, he died. It was a great marriage that left me with 3 kids and now 7 grandkids. Why would I want to declare that marriage null from the beginning?

I guess my point is, someone needs to make a case and prove to me that there is a God and they can't use the bible as the only evidence.

Don't get me wrong, I think the bible is a great set of guidelines on how to live your life. I try and be as kind and considerate as possible. I don't break laws and I'm, what I would consider, a decent human being. My take on the bible and I've read most of it, is that it's the same thing I learned in kindergarten. Treat others as you would like to be treated.

Thanks to the moderators who have left this thread going. And thanks to all the posters who have kept it civil. In my neck of the woods, even civil questions about religion don't have good outcomes.

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Great question and an easy one to answer, honestly. We live in a very complex universe that functions more efficiently than any system man has ever designed, and that design demands a designer. It's the law of cause and effect.

For example, the earth rotates around the sun on the same path in exactly the same amount of time (one year). If the earth were to diverge from either side of that path by 1/10 of an inch, the earth would not be able to sustain life. So how can a system that is so big and complex be so accurate at the same time? Because it was designed that way. Something had to have created it that way in order for it to be so exact.

And that's where my faith as a Christian is based, on the evidences that are seen in nature. There are many out there who would tell you that it started with a Big Bang about 13.8 billion years ago and then evolved to where it is today, but where is the evidence for that? The Law of entropy has never been proven wrong which makes a Big Bang impossible from the beginning. Where are the half apes, half humans that science tells us existed a billion years ago? Every form of life that has been discovered on earth has been complex in design and therefore incongruent with these theories.

This is only a tiny sliver of the evidence available in nature to make a strong case for a creator. I too used to be an agnostic, but I studied the evidence for myself with an unbiased opinion and found that Norman Geisler was right when he said "I don't have enough faith to be an atheist."


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[mfllood3800]

Search all day on the glorious inter net
You will find research that supports any side you choose - I didn't make assumptions about your education and background, so why would you assume that I'm just nitpicking off the internet? I've spent a lot of time and money studying biology striving to provide insightful research in the hope of developing a good career. Given that some of my work has dealt with the evolution of certain traits in ruminant species I occasionally run into arguments with people who try dismiss this research. As a result I've done my best to educate myself on their beliefs and why they might see fit to criticize. For me this has included reading most of the current iterations of the bible, Torah and Qu'ran, and even reading some of the early latin versions of the Catholic bible. Since I'm a voracious reader I've also read many books on archaeology in Europe and the middle East since I'm fascinated by the process of human evolution. No offense, but kind of a dick move on your part to assume that I just copied and pasted a few things off the internet.


"But dont be at the mercy of the information high way hitch hiking along thru life

Use your own mind to look around and decide

Information is good, but it isn't always accurate
And often is fuel to an agenda

Some say this about the bible, but these are usually the ones who look for information to sustain doubt

Our are angry with the way their life has gone and need a blame target

Many archeological finds verify the evidence of the exodus
In due time every eye Will see

At that time will your opinion change, or will you refuse, simply because you have lived a life to prove the bible wrong." - I haven't lived my life trying to prove the bible wrong, as I said above, I've tried to be the best biologist I can and the best me. In this argument I'm able to reference this research because I've read the journal articles and books that these researchers have published, not just pulled snippets off the internet. If you've researched these works I'd appreciate your opinion on them, but if you haven't I'd prefer that you not make assumptions about their research and about me as a person.

EVERY body is at the mercy of the information they chose to absorb- including you.
Every study you do is generated and understood by studies before and utilizes the precedent of info you observed historically.

No human on earth is generating their own 100% original ideas, but rather building on the foundations of others. . They are all from observation, study, and influence of the foundational hypothesis past on from one generation to the next. Even in your own words, you read what you believe. You may study something, but it is interpreted thru the same thread of perspective you developed from what you have previously read.
No offense but to declare your info is uniquely genuine as your own "ideas" is false. Your brain receives information and you process it based on past experiences or pre formed ideas .
You , me and anyone, at best , add information to what we have chosen and allowed to format your perspective.

 

[Gumbo]

Grace is a very liberating thing. And I don't understand how a person can't see the fingerprint of God when they look into the night sky or at a strand of DNA. I don't know if I am right in my belief that Jesus Christ was who he claimed, but I choose to believe because arguing against it makes me feel empty and hollow. Conversely, faith and church bring me peace. To me it is as simple as that.

 

[jmden]

I’m sure for a small donation that could’ve been taken care of.

When this is 'necessary' to get something done...that's not true biblical Christianity. That's man made religion--run from that.

 

[Jimbob]

So who created Christianity? Seriously, I would love to hear your answer.

Remember the Bible is an accurate historical document. It documents the life of Jesus and you cannot refute that.

So, I think Jesus created Christianity. He made many enemies with the organized religion of his time. He didn't gain wealth and power. He lived a meager life and ultimately died a horrible death. All of this is historical fact. Jesus was a man that said a bunch of stuff then was crucified, all fact.

Well maybe Jesus was just a con artist and his plan failed and got himself killed. So his disciples hatched a plan to fool everyone and make up Christianity so they could get powerful. Well, the outcome was the same. They all got themselves killed. Again historical facts.

The weird thing is that Jesus could have recanted at the end but instead he didn't he died willfully. The disciples? They could have given up on this plan to get power and saved their lives but they choose to die a horrible death instead. Very weird that all these guys would die for a hoax they made up just to get themselves power.

The bible gives us an accurate historical record of the lives of Jesus and his disciples. They lived and they were killed for teaching the Gospel. I just don't see hos the Gospel was made up for the intention of power if all these guys choose to die for it. Does not make any logical sense. I like believing in logic and it is logic that makes Christianity true.

Now, have people used Christianity since its birth as a way for power and abuse? ABSOLUTELY. However, those people did not create Christianity they only abused it for their own twisted reasons. They don't represent what Christianity really is.

 

[Sverimerica]

I have always been a doubter of religion. I'm someone who wants to see proof of everything. If this was a court of law and you had to convince someone that there was a God, could you do it without using the bible? Barring that one piece of "evidence" would make it an impossible case to prove. I don't consider myself an atheist. Atheists believe there is no God. I'm more of an agnostic. I'm sitting on the fence waiting for proof one way or the other. Unfortunately, the side to believe there is no God is getting stronger and stronger. Here's an example....

Years ago, me and my soon to be wife went off to Gatlinburg, TN to get married. It was a very small ceremony, with her 8 year old daughter as a witness. It was perfect in my eyes. As the years go by, it really upset her that she could not participate in communion at her Catholic church. I went to church with her, but only out of curiosity. It seemed very cult like to me because I was an outsider whose only time to attend church was when I was drug there by my mother. Dad still went fishing. Either way, my wife wanted to get married in the church. So we meet with the pastor 5 or 6 times and had to attend a class. The class was called "once more with love. In that class was an elderly couple. They were both around 75 to 80 years old. Both of their previous spouses had passed away. The lady asked the teacher what an annulment was. And after the explanation, she asked why the Catholic church was making her get an annulment for her first marriage. A marriage that lasted 50 years and ended when her spouse passed away. The teacher said that was part of being Catholic. That to get married again, the Catholic Diocese would have to declare her previous marriage null from the beginning. The old lady kept saying "but I fulfilled my obligation, til death do you part, he died. It was a great marriage that left me with 3 kids and now 7 grandkids. Why would I want to declare that marriage null from the beginning?

I guess my point is, someone needs to make a case and prove to me that there is a God and they can't use the bible as the only evidence.

Don't get me wrong, I think the bible is a great set of guidelines on how to live your life. I try and be as kind and considerate as possible. I don't break laws and I'm, what I would consider, a decent human being. My take on the bible and I've read most of it, is that it's the same thing I learned in kindergarten. Treat others as you would like to be treated.

Thanks to the moderators who have left this thread going. And thanks to all the posters who have kept it civil. In my neck of the woods, even civil questions about religion don't have good outcomes.

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Similar to mormons and sealing. A man can be sealed (not married) to more than one woman. For a woman, she must get the previous sealing annuled... Hmmm

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[Sverimerica]

So who created Christianity? Seriously, I would love to hear your answer.

Remember the Bible is an accurate historical document. It documents the life of Jesus and you cannot refute that.

So, I think Jesus created Christianity. He made many enemies with the organized religion of his time. He didn't gain wealth and power. He lived a meager life and ultimately died a horrible death. All of this is historical fact. Jesus was a man that said a bunch of stuff then was crucified, all fact.

Well maybe Jesus was just a con artist and his plan failed and got himself killed. So his disciples hatched a plan to fool everyone and make up Christianity so they could get powerful. Well, the outcome was the same. They all got themselves killed. Again historical facts.

The weird thing is that Jesus could have recanted at the end but instead he didn't he died willfully. The disciples? They could have given up on this plan to get power and saved their lives but they choose to die a horrible death instead. Very weird that all these guys would die for a hoax they made up just to get themselves power.

The bible gives us an accurate historical record of the lives of Jesus and his disciples. They lived and they were killed for teaching the Gospel. I just don't see hos the Gospel was made up for the intention of power if all these guys choose to die for it. Does not make any logical sense. I like believing in logic and it is logic that makes Christianity true.

Now, have people used Christianity since its birth as a way for power and abuse? ABSOLUTELY. However, those people did not create Christianity they only abused it for their own twisted reasons. They don't represent what Christianity really is.

I will say this: Joseph Smith, the founder of the mormon church died for his convictions, and I believe with every fibre of my being that he was not the prophet he claimed to be (nicest way I can say it). But maybe HE believed himself to be that. Dying for your beliefs doesnt make them accurate.

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[5MilesBack]

Dying for your beliefs doesnt make them accurate.

You are correct. And if Jesus had been crucified on the cross and buried, and that was the end of it.......then a lot of folks here would be correct. There would be no resurrection, there would be no afterlife, there would be no saviour, and there would be no hope, and we would all be living a meaningless life for several decades and then it would be over.