Can you change your username??

[Jimbob]

Why? Why does he need the answers? The point of his post was that we don't need the answers. Since the beginning man has wanted answers so bad he has created Gods to explain the unexplainable. How did chance create this order and design? Time. Unfathomable time. Time so vast there is no way anyone can wrap their brain around what it could do. Time that has failed and failed for so long until finally some pieces landed in the right place. Then more unfathomable time. It is a common argument that the universe had to be created. Maybe the universe is God. Maybe the universe was created from the death of a God. Its as possible as the God in the Bible is. If the universe had to be created then wouldn't a God need to be also created? Nothing comes from nothing right? A universe 99.999....% full of nothing but rocks and gasses, and more nothing had to be created but an all powerful God just becomes? Seams more likely the other way around to me. I don't know. I don't need to know. I am certainly not going to pretend I know because it says so in a book. I am also not going to tell people how to live and what to believe in so, to each their own and I hope yours makes you want to live a good life.

I think you are just throwing out some questions and hypotheticals without saying they are true, your point is the answer to those questions is not important, correct? So what is important to you? I gather by your last statement that you do think two things are important:

1. "To each their own" The idea that each person gets to decid their beliefs and its not decided by someone else ( I think/presume you value this)
2. Then you say "I hope it makes you want to live a good life"

What even is a good life? who decides a good life? what if my good life involves telling other people what to do? Would you still hope I live that life? Or would you rather all people seek your definition of a good life?

Honestly, I am very curious how people think and what drives their decision making and what drives their opinions. I would love to know how you answer my above questions, I really am curious and in a very respectful way.

 

[Sverimerica]

I think you are just throwing out some questions and hypotheticals without saying they are true, your point is the answer to those questions is not important, correct? So what is important to you? I gather by your last statement that you do think two things are important:

1. "To each their own" The idea that each person gets to decid their beliefs and its not decided by someone else ( I think/presume you value this)
2. Then you say "I hope it makes you want to live a good life"

What even is a good life? who decides a good life? what if my good life involves telling other people what to do? Would you still hope I live that life? Or would you rather all people seek your definition of a good life?

Honestly, I am very curious how people think and what drives their decision making and what drives their opinions. I would love to know how you answer my above questions, I really am curious and in a very respectful way.

Not directed at me, but I can take a shot:

(1) how else should it be? To each his own implies to me that each person ought to decide for themselves what to think. Who else should decide? No one here truly knows another's path or journey if you will. For me, choosing to be in a state of spiritual limbo, to walk away from what I was raised to think was a very liberating decision. It was also the hardest decision I ever made in my life. But it gave me peace. By that, I mean what I said above that if God is real (and I for one do not believe the bible has it right) he knows my heart. If I am wrong and he wants to burn me in hell for eternity then good, I dont want to be with him anyways. That is how I feel. I am trying to live as best I can and provide the best life I can for my wife and kids. She and I are happy to be together and we love our kids. THAT is HERE and NOW, as opposed to a story about the Jewish God and the chosen people of Israel which have nothing to do with me or my family. It is the creation story of one civilization and the telling of their kings and struggles over the centuries (old testament) and then the story of how they murdered their own god and his teachings (new testament). I think Jesus taught alot about being a great person. And thats it. For me. But for others it warms their hearts and fills their souls with joy and purpose, which is wonderful, for them. To each his own.

(2) a good life is dedided by the individual. What you consider a good life probably wont fit into my paradigm of whats a good life and vice versa. And thats ok! Because guess what? Your life is YOUR LIFE, and I have zero right to impose on you what that should be. Even in todays media, lots of talk about life success, what people should be doing, blah blah blah. Everyone has different personalities and preferences. As a society we need to live together in a cobstructive way, which still doesnt require us to share the definition of good life. Rather, all we need in common is to pursue our good life in a way that does not harm others.

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[5MilesBack]

I find it very weird why people do not want to talk about this. My guess/I speculate that some people would not want to be challenged about their ideas or they are happy to stay ignorant and not think about it.

Straight from God's word: "Proverbs 1:7 - The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction."

 

[WCS]

I find it very weird why people do not want to talk about this. My guess/I speculate that some people would not want to be challenged about their ideas or they are happy to stay ignorant and not think about it. Once you talk about it you have to make some decisions. I think some people just don't want to ever think about it. I always want my ideas/beliefs/convictions/choices to be challenged. It will make me analyze things and really see if what I am doing or thinking is best/correct.


So why lock a thread because of where it might go? People are discussing things and sharing their ideas and for the most part no personal attacks. No reason for the mods to try and control things, I think we can agree there is way too much of that kinda stuff in this world already (not talking about the forum here).

I have no problem with people questioning and challenging my beliefs. I am an atheist myself and have been since the age of 8 (I was a huge nerd and spent way too much time reading peer reviewed scientific journal articles, and followed it up with reading many versions of the Christian bible, Qu'ran, Torah, and the catechism of the Catholic Church). However, internet forums typically end up with someone misinterpreting a question of their beliefs and then begins the descent into a mudslinging match. I think it's a real compliment to this forum and it's members that this debate has been civil and respectful for the most part. When I read some of the responses I do get a ticking time bomb type feeling, but I'd love to be proven wrong and the discourse remain considerate and polite.

 

[5MilesBack]

When I read some of the responses I do get a ticking time bomb type feeling

You should get that feeling because no one knows when they are going to take that last breath. So if you died today, do you know where your soul is going for eternity? There are only two choices: Heaven or Hell. And the Bible is clear that there is only one way to Heaven. John 14:6 - "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

Yes, I realize that's not what you meant with the time bomb comment........but I used it anyway for the purposes in this thread.

 

[Sverimerica]

You should get that feeling because no one knows when they are going to take that last breath. So if you died today, do you know where your soul is going for eternity? There are only two choices: Heaven or Hell. And the Bible is clear that there is only one way to Heaven. John 14:6 - "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

Yes, I realize that's not what you meant with the time bomb comment........but I used it anyway for the purposes in this thread.

A little preachy maybe? Just saying.

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[maninthemaze]

You should get that feeling because no one knows when they are going to take that last breath. So if you died today, do you know where your soul is going for eternity? There are only two choices: Heaven or Hell. And the Bible is clear that there is only one way to Heaven. John 14:6 - "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

Yes, I realize that's not what you meant with the time bomb comment........but I used it anyway for the purposes in this thread.

Maybe he'll just go 6 feet in the ground?

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[5MilesBack]

A little preachy maybe? Just saying.

Absolutely! In season and out of season. Just saying.

 

[HookUp]

You should get that feeling because no one knows when they are going to take that last breath. So if you died today, do you know where your soul is going for eternity? There are only two choices: Heaven or Hell. And the Bible is clear that there is only one way to Heaven. John 14:6 - "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."

Yes, I realize that's not what you meant with the time bomb comment........but I used it anyway for the purposes in this thread.

I'm betting on 72 virgins and an eternal erection. Endless worship is about as appealing as endless fire. Rolling the after life dice!!

 

[WCS]

I don't have that feeling because I don't worry about when my time to take a dirt nap will come. I feel pretty dang good about my life and I'm confident that the organic matter that I'm made up of will be returned to the ecosystem where my body will be disposed of by my next of kin.

Funny you should quote John, being that the gospels weren't actually written until many decades after the death of the person named Jesus. The gospels were then also translated, misinterpreted, reinterpreted and selectively edited by the Catholic Church and Eastern Orthodox Churches before later being changed by Protestant denominations. To me that doesn't seem like a solid foundation to build my beliefs on, but if it makes you happy, by all means fill your boots.

This whole discussion did remind me of this skit Rowan Atkinson Live - The devil Toby welcomes you to hell - YouTube , always a good laugh.

 

[jm1607]

This whole discussion did remind me of this skit Rowan Atkinson Live - The devil Toby welcomes you to hell - YouTube , always a good laugh.

I don't know how I've never seen that, that's awesome.. I wish he made more Black Adder lol

 

[Rmauch20]

One thing I do find humorous about people of faith is they truly believe they have it right and all the other religions past and present and other gods that came before are wrong or false gods.

I’m sure I’ll come off as jaded but here goes anyway. After five years as a firefighter/EMT and 10 years as a police officer my take is if there is a God whether it be Mohamed, Odin, Ra, or god in the sense of Christianity he/she does not give a crap at this point, your on your own. And you need to prepare accordingly. I have yet to see someone being down from the heavens and save anyone. If anything it seems like the shitheads have nine lives and can walk away from overdoses, vehicle accidents, spouse throwing of them down a flight of stairs And people who have led good respectable lives get the short end of the stick. The last straw for me was about two years ago there was a three-year-old child that died in an absolute freak accident. I was the first on scene and after leaving I decided that if God would take a child that way, that is not something or someone I’m going to spend my time or money worshipping.

I was never a regular attendee at church But after that I just gave up. And it was honestly liberating.

 

[WCS]

I don't know how I've never seen that, that's awesome.. I wish he made more Black Adder lol

A friend of mine who is Jewish showed me that years ago, and he continues to bug me that there is still time to convert.

 

[Jimbob]

One thing I do find humorous about people of faith is they truly believe they have it right and all the other religions past and present and other gods that came before are wrong or false gods.

I’m sure I’ll come off as jaded but here goes anyway. After five years as a firefighter/EMT and 10 years as a police officer my take is if there is a God whether it be Mohamed, Odin, Ra, or god in the sense of Christianity he/she does not give a crap at this point, your on your own. And you need to prepare accordingly. I have yet to see someone being down from the heavens and save anyone. If anything it seems like the shitheads have nine lives and can walk away from overdoses, vehicle accidents, spouse throwing of them down a flight of stairs And people who have led good respectable lives get the short end of the stick. The last straw for me was about two years ago there was a three-year-old child that died in an absolute freak accident. I was the first on scene and after leaving I decided that if God would take a child that way, that is not something or someone I’m going to spend my time or money worshipping.

I was never a regular attendee at church But after that I just gave up. And it was honestly liberating.

Of course I think I am right. Don't you think your right? You feel your decision is the right one. I believe in absolute truth, so naturally I believe there can only be one correct way/belief.

1+1 = 2

2 is the only correct answer even though there are an infinite number of other choices. Just because there are so many choices doesn't mean that there isn't one correct one.


Also, I cannot even imagine the horrors you have seen and how that would shape you.

 

[mfllood3800]

I'm betting on 72 virgins and an eternal erection. Endless worship is about as appealing as endless fire. Rolling the after life dice!!

Apparently a definition of what worship is seems in order. It isnt just singing songs around the throne.
Worship is when the created does what it was created to be.
The sun worships, as it gives its light and heat
The Mountains worship as they tower above the plains below holding pockets of snow to be released to keep the basins filled with enough moisture to survive

You and I were created to live abundant lives, in His image and likeness, ruling over the earth and having dominion.
Singing songs is part of it, but more importantly , being what we were created to be, doing what we were designed to do.

 

[mfllood3800]

I don't have that feeling because I don't worry about when my time to take a dirt nap will come. I feel pretty dang good about my life and I'm confident that the organic matter that I'm made up of will be returned to the ecosystem where my body will be disposed of by my next of kin.

Funny you should quote John, being that the gospels weren't actually written until many decades after the death of the person named Jesus. The gospels were then also translated, misinterpreted, reinterpreted and selectively edited by the Catholic Church and Eastern Orthodox Churches before later being changed by Protestant denominations. To me that doesn't seem like a solid foundation to build my beliefs on, but if it makes you happy, by all means fill your boots.

This whole discussion did remind me of this skit Rowan Atkinson Live - The devil Toby welcomes you to hell - YouTube , always a good laugh.

The bible does declare from earth we were created and back to earth we will go. But that is just the physical body. There is another part of who we all are and it is our spirit. We are not just a body. So you are right in stating you will take a dirt nap, cause your body certainly will.

You are also referring to the New Testament which itself has been translated into many languages and various cultures for sure, but the message has never changed- ever.
Even the OT is full of Jesus if one looks at it correctly.
Adam is type of Jesus as well as a real dude who lived in the garden, the first ever created dude.
Moses was a type of Jesus as well as a real dude. He delivered a people, just like Jesus has.
On and On the examples are clear.
And these were written thousands of years before Jesus came. And endless verses describe Jesus, His life, His death, and His resurrection to a Tee

 

[mfllood3800]

One thing I do find humorous about people of faith is they truly believe they have it right and all the other religions past and present and other gods that came before are wrong or false gods.

I’m sure I’ll come off as jaded but here goes anyway. After five years as a firefighter/EMT and 10 years as a police officer my take is if there is a God whether it be Mohamed, Odin, Ra, or god in the sense of Christianity he/she does not give a crap at this point, your on your own. And you need to prepare accordingly. I have yet to see someone being down from the heavens and save anyone. If anything it seems like the shitheads have nine lives and can walk away from overdoses, vehicle accidents, spouse throwing of them down a flight of stairs And people who have led good respectable lives get the short end of the stick. The last straw for me was about two years ago there was a three-year-old child that died in an absolute freak accident. I was the first on scene and after leaving I decided that if God would take a child that way, that is not something or someone I’m going to spend my time or money worshipping.

I was never a regular attendee at church But after that I just gave up. And it was honestly liberating.

Hmm so God gets the blame for what is wrong.
oops sorry, when referring to the Christians "God" you used a small "g" god, but others got the capitol. Maybe, using your theology, it was mohameds god or odins god causing these things ?

Maybe it is the devil who comes to kill steal and destroy.
God declared "in this world you will have tribulation, but be of good cheer for I have over come this world"
This world is full of bad things for good people and bad people alike.
But this world is not all there is.
Paul said, "I consider the sufferings of this age, nothing compared to the glory that awaits me"

I used the bible and theology, only because you chose to bring your own theology into this conversation.
Fair is fair.

 

[mfllood3800]

And how fair is life ?

I have lost both parents, a sister, and brother and a daughter. All in a short time period. I am not after a fair life. I am after living my life for Jesus no matter what comes my way. I am not swayed by trials and tribulations cause I don't come to Jesus to escape those. I came to Jesus cause He came to me. I don't come to Jesus so I can deal with all the deaths in my life, I came to Him so I can life my life for Him until I die.

Jesus is not an escape from suffering. He is fellowshipping with me in these sufferings. I see Him more in my sufferings, than all the good. And for that I am thankful. I wouldn't want to suffer without Him, as so many do. There is a backwards theology in most churches today: Come to Jesus and get_____________ you can fill in the blank.

How about we come to Jesus to live. To give our whole heart soul and mind. Not just if He treats me right, or saves a 3 yr old and kills the street trash.
How about we come to discover who He is, not just in the good times, but in all times.

I don't blame God for the bad things we all see. I blame a world indulging itself in sin, and reaping the consequences of those seeds.
But soon, there will come a day when every eye will see and every ear will hear, this Jesus.

 

[MuleyFever]

I think you are just throwing out some questions and hypotheticals without saying they are true, your point is the answer to those questions is not important, correct? So what is important to you? I gather by your last statement that you do think two things are important:

1. "To each their own" The idea that each person gets to decid their beliefs and its not decided by someone else ( I think/presume you value this)
2. Then you say "I hope it makes you want to live a good life"

What even is a good life? who decides a good life? what if my good life involves telling other people what to do? Would you still hope I live that life? Or would you rather all people seek your definition of a good life?

Honestly, I am very curious how people think and what drives their decision making and what drives their opinions. I would love to know how you answer my above questions, I really am curious and in a very respectful way.

These kind of conversations are much better over A: a beer, B: a steak, C: a campfire, D: all of the above.

I actually love a good thoughtful, respectful, semi-controversial conversation. So, I don't like typing on my tablet that much but, a quick response. I did throw out hypotheticals because honestly I believe that is all we have. Yes, the answers are not important. I am an apatheist in the sense that I don't believe it matters.

What is a god life? Well, life is not black and white. There is a lot of grey, of interpretation. A good life can be one in which you do your best to contribute in a positive way and cause no intentional harm to others. Now, go ahead and read into it and find the grey areas. It is a simple statement for this post. Your good life may very well be one of telling other what you believe they should do, believe. I am in Utah and have seen my share of Mormon missionaries. They believe they are living a good life spreading the word of God. Now, telling, or suggesting, are very different than forcing, which the Church has been well known to do.

Thanks for asking.

 

[Takem]

This has been an interesting thread to follow along with. As has been mentioned it's impressive how civil it's remained.

I feel like I'm a pretty spiratual person without being too interested in religion. I grew up a Catholic but while I still go with my wife on holidays I don't feel any connection to it. I'd rather be hiking up a hill getting my connection that way. The biggest turn off of organized religions beliefs is the exclusiveness.

My grandmother passed away two weeks ago after 93 years of what I consider to be a great life. She lost her dad, her daughter (my mom at a young age) and her husband in the span of four years in the early 80's. She understandably went through some hard times for a brief period. She came out of it to help raise my two brothers and me (no small task). She logged 16,000 volunteer hours at the local County Hospital raising money for people who had less than her. She was always there for friends and family whenever they needed anything. She did all of this with a tremendous amount of grace and in the 47 years that I new her without so much as mentioning Jesus. He was never part of her life.

I also have a good for nothing wife beating cousin who is possibly the most self centered and inconsiderate person I've ever met. He is some kind of Chtristian minister and I'm guessing he prays to Jesus every night.

I don'tknow what's on the other side. I guess I wouldn't be that suprised if there's somethething over there and my grandmother and my mom have been reuinited (I certainly hope so). It seems that some people would have me believe that in the Christian version of the afterlife my Grandmother would be on some level lower than people like my cousin. I'm just as likely to start believing in Santa Claus again as I am to believe that's the case. I'm going to do my best to live a good life based on the example that my grandmother and others have gave me. While I'm open to hearing what other people believe I don't feel like I need any other guidance.