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[Trial153]

William F. Albright, one the great archeologists said:

"The excessive skepticism shown toward the Bible by important historical schools of the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, certain phases of which still appear periodically, has been progressively discredited. Discovery after discovery has established the accuracy of innumerable details, and has brought increased recognition to the value of the Bible as a source of history."

Big Bang? The liberal press and liberal education machine would, in general, have the masses believe there's no question about it. In actuality, there are numerous major and crippling problems with it that the scientific community hotly debates.

Just like topics discussed here (2A...?) the mass media and liberal education systems as a whole produces people that are not truly told/given a critical look at the other side of the story. My kids are taught straight 'evolution', but they know many of the huge issues which bring it to it's knees and destroy it. Believe me, it takes way more 'faith' to believe in 'evolution' than creation by God. Sure we see and Darwin saw what is commonly called micro-evolution/adaptation, but genetically this results in less information in a population of animals/etc. Micro-evolution is the 'engine' by which Macro-evolution (monkey's to human and such similar ideas) is supposed to occur. What does macro evolution require? More information. What does micro-evolution/adaptation, the engine behind macro evolution genetically produce? Less information. Big Bang? No one still has a clue how the first life could have formed truly (conjecture), Darwin can be quoted by saying that if there are not millions of intermediary life forms found fossilized then his theory is shot while the evolutionists to this day have only pathetic and discredited examples of such.

Which came first? The heart or the blood vessel/veins or the blood? Which came first? Eyes (cornea, lens, optic nerves going to the brain) optic nerves or the brain to interpret what is being seen? Which came first? Bones or muscles? Michael Behe, a noted biochemist writes about a concept called 'Irreducible Complexity' basically talking about biochemical machines found throughout life forms that are so complex and they cannot be reduced in complexity or they would be useless. This very small sample listed here is absolutely pathetic... Which came first? Male or female?

DNA...so complex that Bill Gates says they are trying to make computers that mimic it. Really? “DNA is like a computer program but far, far more advanced than any software ever created.” Bill Gates. And yet we have a blind faith in a blind random process and try to salve our concerns about it by an ever increasing time span being used from Big Bang until now? And even more interesting is that DNA is a language which communicates information. Information always comes from a greater information, check out information theory, and yet, as smart and all knowing as many of us are/want to be, we have no idea the infinite information to be found in DNA alone of let alone all the DNA of all the life forms on earth. And we are just talking about a small part of what's on one very small planet in what is an infinite universe. The boundaries of the universe are not known.

Hmm...an infinite God and the universe is infinite. Hmm...an infinite God and we are still trying to find what is really in an atom. Things smaller than electron, neutrons and protons--leptons, quarks...where does it end in minaturization? And all with knife edge balance that isn't even understood.

And we sit here and shake our fist at an infinite God? Really?

I can't begin to mention the thousands of potential talking points here related to every area of life. This is a link to a lecture by Lee Strobel, a highly educated former atheist who went about to prove Christianity was false and instead came to know the Lord based on the evidence. There is so much evidence if one is REALLY willing to search. The Case for Christ | Atheist Tries to Disprove Christianity Becomes Christian! - YouTube

Another very small slice of reality to watch. It's a movie called the Atheist Delusion: The Atheist Delusion Movie (2016) HD - YouTube

There are ready answers to virtually (hmm...if God is truly infinite, wouldn't there maybe be some things we don't and won't ever know?) every issue folks raise up against why they shouldn't believe in the one true God. Pride and an underlying knowledge that they are accountable to that God, an accountability many are desperate to say doesn't exist so they don't have to feel accountable, are some of the reasons people don't want to believe.

"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, and the knowledge of the Holy One is insight." Proverbs 9:10

"The fool has said in his heart, 'There is no God'. Psalm 14:1

all that to say that because we dont fully undertand many facects of life it must mean that there must be some all knowing deity who does? So "God knows " becomes our end all to anything unknown. If thats what you need to find solace in life then by all means have at it. However I cant stretch that far. It seems perfectly resonable to me to admit that I dont have all the answers.

 

[Sverimerica]

It is good for people to have all sorts of opinions on these things. One of the problems I had with the church (more like a cult, really) that I grew up in and dedicated my whole heart and soul to for 20 years was that diversity of thought was not tolerated.

After a long journey, I currently dont live or believe in any sort of religion. I dont know if there is or isn't a god, and I dont care. Here is why:

If there is a god, he/she/it knows my heart, and knows that I dont feel comfortable dedicating my life to something I dont understand or feel comfortable with. This god would know my journey in life just like all of you. If he is a harsh, vengeful god who wants to burn all the billions that dont accept him for whatever reason, then that is no god I wish to be aligned with.

We are all just people and most of us are trying to do our best in life. We arent perfect and should not be expected to be such. I dont understand on any meaningful level why I should be punished for simply being an imperfect human. Quite frankly, the story of Jesus on the cross being punished for humanity is disturbing, and implies that there is some other, independent standard of justice that the Christian god is bound by. Why would god be bound by anything? And what does this story that took place in the middle east have to do with me and my white european ancestors? Most Americans are Christian simply because Christianity in its various forms were forced on european peoples in the early middle ages. In other parts of the world it would be something else. Who is right?

So I dont know what to believe and thats ok. Obviously none of us have died, so we dont know what happens, if anything, after. I hope there is something, but if not, I wont have any consciousness to know anyways.

In the meantime, all anyone can do is to be good to themselves and those around them, and find happiness in our lives. Only each person can decide for themselves what that is, whether being Christian, Atheist, Buddhist, Jew, etc. The right way is what each individual feels is right for themselves.

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[GLB]

I agree with Jmden. Sometimes religion is the problem and has many flaws that turn people away. I am a believer and I believe that the Bible is God's word to lead us to know Him and have a relationship with our Creator

True biblical Christianity is not a religion--one of the many important things that make it completely unique. It is a relationship with an infinitely holy, powerful, loving, forgiving Creator God. Religions are man made and there are many of those.

 

[5MilesBack]

True biblical Christianity is not a religion--one of the many important things that make it completely unique. It is a relationship with an infinitely holy, powerful, loving, forgiving Creator God. Religions are man made and there are many of those.

Yep, it's been said many times........"Religion is man's attempt to find a way to God, but Jesus is God's only way to Him".

 

[jmden]

all that to say that because we dont fully undertand many facects of life it must mean that there must be some all knowing deity who does? So "God knows " becomes our end all to anything unknown. If thats what you need to find solace in life then by all means have at it. However I cant stretch that far. It seems perfectly resonable to me to admit that I dont have all the answers.

Then I hope you are sincerely searching for answers.

How did blind, random chance produce such order and amazing design? Where did the matter to produce all this come from in the first place?

Look at what Richard Dawkins, perhaps the most well know evolutionist in the world right now, has to say about how life came about:

Richard Dawkins believes extraterrestrials created man! - YouTube

Is that the best explanation our best evolutionist can come up with? Have you really researched this?

That clip is from a great movie in the theaters several years ago called Expelled. Check it out. This is apparently a link to the entire movie:

Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed (full movie) - YouTube

 

[Trial153]

Then I hope you are sincerely searching for answers.

How did blind, random chance produce such order and amazing design? Where did the matter to produce all this come from in the first place?

Look at what Richard Dawkins, perhaps the most well know evolutionist in the world right now, has to say about how life came about:

Richard Dawkins believes extraterrestrials created man! - YouTube

Is that the best explanation our best evolutionist can come up with? Have you really researched this?

That clip is from a great movie in the theaters several years ago called Expelled. Check it out. This is apparently a link to the entire movie:

Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed (full movie) - YouTube

You illustrated perfectly a level of condemnation that is all to typical from your camp, for lack of a better word.
I stated that I am ok with not knowing everything and you twist it into me being an evolutionist and a poorly read one at that.
You might very well know less than me about any number of unknowns spiritual or otherwise and yet somehow you feel your faith in god is a better answer then me saying ...I don’t know. The truth of the matter is you don’t really know either.

 

[MuleyFever]

Then I hope you are sincerely searching for answers.

How did blind, random chance produce such order and amazing design? Where did the matter to produce all this come from in the first place?

Why? Why does he need the answers? The point of his post was that we don't need the answers. Since the beginning man has wanted answers so bad he has created Gods to explain the unexplainable. How did chance create this order and design? Time. Unfathomable time. Time so vast there is no way anyone can wrap their brain around what it could do. Time that has failed and failed for so long until finally some pieces landed in the right place. Then more unfathomable time. It is a common argument that the universe had to be created. Maybe the universe is God. Maybe the universe was created from the death of a God. Its as possible as the God in the Bible is. If the universe had to be created then wouldn't a God need to be also created? Nothing comes from nothing right? A universe 99.999....% full of nothing but rocks and gasses, and more nothing had to be created but an all powerful God just becomes? Seams more likely the other way around to me. I don't know. I don't need to know. I am certainly not going to pretend I know because it says so in a book. I am also not going to tell people how to live and what to believe in so, to each their own and I hope yours makes you want to live a good life.

 

[Nomad]

Rokslide is a lot like a solo backpack hunt. Just when you think you know what you're in for, everything goes sideways. At the end of it, sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, and sometimes it rains (ok, I stole that line)

 

[elkyinzer]

I'm not really up on my theology but don't most Christian denominations acknowledge that Genesis and much of the Old Testament are parabolic and not the literal creation story?

 

[jmden]

You illustrated perfectly a level of condemnation that is all to typical from your camp, for lack of a better word.
I stated that I am ok with not knowing everything and you twist it into me being an evolutionist and a poorly read one at that.
You might very well know less than me about any number of unknowns spiritual or otherwise and yet somehow you feel your faith in god is a better answer then me saying ...I don’t know. The truth of the matter is you don’t really know either.

I'm talking in generalities here and probably didn't make that very clear. My apologies. It was not my intent to condemn anything, but provoke thought. But please make sure you don't say that in such a way just to shut down conversation--not saying you are doing that. But when folks start talking about 'judging' and 'condemning' it can often be a tactic, concious or unconcious, to shut down the honest conversation. Much like liberals saying 'racist' or maybe that your a Nazi for supporting the 2A, etc. and then the conversation is usually over, sadly.

'Evolution' and it's so-called scientific basis (first part of scientific method is observation...who was there to observer evolution of matter to life and life evolve to humans...?) is often really a foundational piece of why people refuse to look seriously at what the Bible says about God, the nature of the universe, sin, death, salvation, God's love and forgiveness for a sinful, rebellious creation, what when wrong outlined in Genesis 3, etc. It's often used as a way to not have to deal with the realities the Bible outlines, so that's why I bring it up. Not to say that you are an evolutionist. Sorry for the confusion.

An 'I don't know' is an honest thing to say. I'm saying you can know, with finality. And the Bible, God's Word and main way He reveals himself to the those He considers the crown of His creation, humans, who are created in His own image and who He wants a relationship with, according to the first few verses in Genesis. But see, this option of truly studying the Bible to see what it really says, is virtually erased from most people's minds early in life, sadly. Many, many who have done so, in time recognize that the Bible reflects reality better than any other book. Strange...

 

[maninthemaze]

Rokslide is a lot like a solo backpack hunt. Just when you think you know what you're in for, everything goes sideways. At the end of it, sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, and sometimes it rains (ok, I stole that line)

The world ain't what it seems, is it Gunny? The moment you think you've got it figured, you're wrong!!

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[jmden]

I'm not really up on my theology but don't most Christian denominations acknowledge that Genesis and much of the Old Testament are parabolic and not the literal creation story?

Many are lead astray from true Biblical Christianity, swayed by the 'peer-pressure' man applies. Who among us truly can't be swayed by peer pressure in any area of life? Very common for us to be swayed, but very sad depending on situation. It reminds me of Acts 4:19 when some of Jesus apostles had been put in prison (Why would they be willing to die for the truth of the gospel message and face constant persecution, being poor and undertakeing hard exhausting work the rest of their lives if they were not completely convinced of what they had seen and heard? Among many other similar thing, it makes no sense unless they're eye witness accounts from living with Jesus for 3.5+ years were very real...) and then brought before the Jewish leaders for questioning and said basically that we will not follow what man says, but what God says. It's a constant issue and those that open the door to compromise in the Bible go down a sad road.

If the Bible is truly God's Word, why would you deviate from what it clearly says? Ever? If you start to say, well, God must not have gotten it right here and may be not hear and well, it's just easier, given the current culture and events if we ignore that verse or this verse and well, wow, say that Jesus actually rose from the dead is kinda hard to believe...and you still call yourself a Christian or a Christian church. No, you've just make your own man-made religion at that point and joined the myriad of other man-made religions out there. Why believe any of the Bible at that point?

"But Peter and John answered them, “Whether it is right in the sight of God to listen to you rather than to God, you must judge,..." Acts 4:19

 

[jmden]

Why? Why does he need the answers? The point of his post was that we don't need the answers. Since the beginning man has wanted answers so bad he has created Gods to explain the unexplainable. How did chance create this order and design? Time. Unfathomable time. Time so vast there is no way anyone can wrap their brain around what it could do. Time that has failed and failed for so long until finally some pieces landed in the right place. Then more unfathomable time. It is a common argument that the universe had to be created. Maybe the universe is God. Maybe the universe was created from the death of a God. Its as possible as the God in the Bible is. If the universe had to be created then wouldn't a God need to be also created? Nothing comes from nothing right? A universe 99.999....% full of nothing but rocks and gasses, and more nothing had to be created but an all powerful God just becomes? Seams more likely the other way around to me. I don't know. I don't need to know. I am certainly not going to pretend I know because it says so in a book. I am also not going to tell people how to live and what to believe in so, to each their own and I hope yours makes you want to live a good life.

Well said. Very normal. Like I alluded to earlier, if you really start to critically study this stuff for years and really read/talk/listen to the many highly educated people you don't hear about becuase the liberal press and education system, etc. won't mention them or that they exist, they holes in the whole materialistic theory of how we came to be are so vast, you really (my experience) start to feel like an absolute fool for putting your faith in what man conjectures might have happened.

That's really the only two choices here and we are 'forced', in a sense, into one or the other whether we want to believe it or not. Our faith is either in a blind, materialistic 'process' or in the idea that a something created the universe. Of course, you could some up with all kinds of ideas of what this 'intelligent designer' might be, but what makes the most sense? Is there a carefully preserved account/history of the world than can be tested...?

God says your eternity hangs in the balance. We all are given the opportunity to accept or reject God and 2 Peter chapter 3, among other places, mentions how God is not willing that any should perish. But if one rejects God, in the end He will reject you. Romans 1 outlines why we are without excuse if we choose to reject him. Many other scriptural passages touch on this as well.

Your journey is very different than mine, but many of our choices have the same options and same consequences.

 

[5MilesBack]

I'm not really up on my theology but don't most Christian denominations acknowledge that Genesis and much of the Old Testament are parabolic and not the literal creation story?

I guess if they don't use the Bible as the final authority, then sure.......they can make up whatever they want to fit whatever narrative they want, to fit whatever needs they might have. But that's probably one reason why we have so many versions of the Bible these days, so they can change it to meet their narrative instead of God's. If that's what folks see in Christianity, then I can fully understand why they want nothing to do with it. That would be like joining a club of a bunch of idiots. But that's not what true Christianity or a good biblical fundamental church is all about.

 

[mfllood3800]

I'm not really up on my theology but don't most Christian denominations acknowledge that Genesis and much of the Old Testament are parabolic and not the literal creation story?

Absolutely not

 

[rcb2000]

Not at all what I expected to find here....

 

[jmden]

Not at all what I expected to find here....

Now that's funny!

Don't be shy!

 

[MuleyFever]

I was thinking more like...

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[WCS]

I was thinking more like...

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Haha, have to agree. Some of the comments on here make me worry for the future of humanity. Fortunately it has been a civil debate for the most part. I have to side with the OP and agree that this thread should be locked before people misinterpret some of the comments.

 

[Jimbob]

I find it very weird why people do not want to talk about this. My guess/I speculate that some people would not want to be challenged about their ideas or they are happy to stay ignorant and not think about it. Once you talk about it you have to make some decisions. I think some people just don't want to ever think about it. I always want my ideas/beliefs/convictions/choices to be challenged. It will make me analyze things and really see if what I am doing or thinking is best/correct.


So why lock a thread because of where it might go? People are discussing things and sharing their ideas and for the most part no personal attacks. No reason for the mods to try and control things, I think we can agree there is way too much of that kinda stuff in this world already (not talking about the forum here).