Can It Be Fixed?

[bluetick78]

Hello All, my self and some friends were discussing mule deer over the weekend. At first it was "are you going this year?", "where ya going?", "been scouting yet?". Those kinds of things. Then it got into population numbers, bucks we've seen/killed/hunted in the past few years; and eventually evolved into a conversation about how difficult it can be to find a nice (160+) buck anymore.
To give context, we were on a fishing trip not far from home in Eastern Idaho. All of us have lived in Idaho our entire lives, ages ranged from 72 yrs old to 23 yrs old. One is currently a F&G employee, another a retired F&G Conservation officer, the rest avid muley hunters who scout all summer and hunt hard all season.
Many examples were given and discussed of units/areas that had robust deer numbers as recently as 2016ish, some as long ago as the mid 70's, but are now very hard to find many deer at all in...let alone one that would be considered mature. Sounds negative and depressing, right?
Well, we began discussing some things that could help. There's things that average people can't control (development on winter range, growing population of humans, certain predators, etc). But what can we control? So the question was posed: "If we could wipe the slate clean all across the West and go back to a time when the deer were everywhere, what could have been done to prevent the decline.....And...would it still work now?"
Several ideas were produced including:
1. Limiting hunting (this one was shot down, deer have still declined in draw units)
2. Counties/States re-zone certain areas for winter range i.e. no development. (Shot down too, people collecting property taxes doesn't care about deer)
3. My favorite: open up way more elk hunting to reduce winter range competition for deer. My corner of Idaho is plagued with draw-only elk hunting (rifle). Opening up these units to short, general season otc hunting would reduce elk in places they are at or over objective, and let the mulies have a chance on the winter range.
4. Put black bears, mtn lions, and wolves back on the predator list and allow unlimited, year-round harvest. (I love this idea too).
Let's hear what Rokslide has to say. Keep it civil and respectful. Remember, our collective opinions and ideas matter, our individual ones aren't worth sand in the Sahara unless it's a good one. Something needs to change for the better, staying positive is the only way that can happen.

 

[Blowdowner]

Option 4. All your discussion mates seem to think the existence of deer is guaranteed by God. It's not true. Allowing the human population to grow without eradicating predators at a faster rate is an act of extermination against deer and the hunting way of life. I know you chose predators too but i want anyone reading this to realize that if your state has recently banned the hunting of bears or lions, your government hates you and wants you gone. And if you're talking about colder climates or higher altitude the loss of cold adapted genetics can make herd recovery nearly impossible.

 

[mike.adams.467]

I think idea #4 is terrible. You live in Idaho Falls; you should know that the exploding human population and massive growth into the foothills, coupled with the tremendous number of windmills in the wintering area, do way more harm than the elk will do. IDFG in their infinite wisdom is going to allow a slaughter of cow elk this fall in the Island Park general area. I bet it does nothing except put a dent in the elk herd, that is still recovering from the wolves and grizzlies that have been preying on them. It won't help the deer hunt at all. BTW, they added 100 doe tags to that area, which as you know is not overrun with deer by any means. We expressed concern about these recent changes, but the powers that be never really take public input seriously.

 

[Blowdowner]

I think idea #4 is terrible. You live in Idaho Falls; you should know that the exploding human population and massive growth into the foothills, coupled with the tremendous number of windmills in the wintering area, do way more harm than the elk will do. IDFG in their infinite wisdom is going to allow a slaughter of cow elk this fall in the Island Park general area. I bet it does nothing except put a dent in the elk herd, that is still recovering from the wolves and grizzlies that have been preying on them. It won't help the deer hunt at all. BTW, they added 100 doe tags to that area, which as you know is not overrun with deer by any means. We expressed concern about these recent changes, but the powers that be never really take public input seriously.

Number 4 is predator control

 

[Muledeerfanatic]

Less people
That is the problem
They have no chance any more and it's obvious

 

[bluetick78]

I think idea #4 is terrible. You live in Idaho Falls; you should know that the exploding human population and massive growth into the foothills, coupled with the tremendous number of windmills in the wintering area, do way more harm than the elk will do. IDFG in their infinite wisdom is going to allow a slaughter of cow elk this fall in the Island Park general area. I bet it does nothing except put a dent in the elk herd, that is still recovering from the wolves and grizzlies that have been preying on them. It won't help the deer hunt at all. BTW, they added 100 doe tags to that area, which as you know is not overrun with deer by any means. We expressed concern about these recent changes, but the powers that be never really take public input seriously.

I agree Mike. Development in East Idaho is one of our biggest issues. Our winter range is getting smaller every time a framer hooks his Paslode to a compressor. I'm just not sure there's a thing in the world we can do about it. I'm curious why you think Idea 4 is garbage?

 

[mike.adams.467]

I agree Mike. Development in East Idaho is one of our biggest issues. Our winter range is getting smaller every time a framer hooks his Paslode to a compressor. I'm just not sure there's a thing in the world we can do about it. I'm curious why you think Idea 4 is garbage?

 

[mike.adams.467]

Where is the evidence that elk on winter range impact deer numbers? Elk are grazers. Deer tend to be browsers. There should be very little competition for food. We'll see what happens now that the lion season is year round. Theoretically, that is intended to help deer numbers increase. I have my doubts that many more cats will be killed.

 

[bluetick78]

I agree about the lions. The hound hunting populace has moved more towards "tree 'em and free 'em" in the last decade. There is enough new houndsmen to really put a dent in the population though.
There is anecdotal evidence both ways on the elk vs deer on the winter range. Idea 3 is only based on areas that used to be deer-heavy now being dominated by elk. Seems the deer fail to recover much even in ideal conditions, and the only changed variable is a huge increase in the elk population. The areas I'm using as evidence don't have much (if any) real development going on. This idea could be completely wrong.

 

[Jake Larsen]

I agree about the lions. The hound hunting populace has moved more towards "tree 'em and free 'em" in the last decade. There is enough new houndsmen to really put a dent in the population though.
There is anecdotal evidence both ways on the elk vs deer on the winter range. Idea 3 is only based on areas that used to be deer-heavy now being dominated by elk. Seems the deer fail to recover much even in ideal conditions, and the only changed variable is a huge increase in the elk population. The areas I'm using as evidence don't have much (if any) real development going on. This idea could be completely wrong.

The hounds comment is right on. I personally know two new houndsmen (started in the last 5-6 years). Both catch tons of cat per season, and only kill a couple. I get it, they’re looking for mature old Toms only, but they’re doing absolutely nothing from a population control standpoint.


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[Indian Summer]

In many areas, it’s the wolves. Get rid of them and the mule deer will do better. In other areas it’s mother nature. And you’re not going to change that. Brutal winters are the number one killers of deer and antelope. It’s been talked about many times before but elk numbers don’t seem to have an impact on deer. There are areas where fish and game drastically reduced elk numbers in an effort to increase deer and it did not work. Where I hunt the deer and elk do not winter in the same areas for the most part so that is a non-factor.

If I had to pick one factor that would improve habitat, especially on wintering grounds it would be a reduction in livestock grazing. You will not change that either.

 

[Customweld]

I think habitat improvement would be one of the greatest multipliers we could achieve. We dodged a huge bullet this winter in S Idaho. After losing 200k acres of critical winter habitat on the Paddock Fire and 10k acres in the Valley Fire, we didn't get heavy snow or super cold temps. IFG and BLM were able to get grass seed and bitterbrush planted, but it will be years before it reaches maturity. In the meantime, not much will be done to reduce the spread of noxious weeds. In 3-5 years the cheatrgrass and foxtail will be a tinderbox waiting to blow up again.
There is so much working against muleys right now, It's going to take a monumental shift to make herds rebound. There are some fantastic Rokcasts on mule deer. If you haven't listened to them, you should.

 

[idelkslayer]

I have always wished there was some way for the State to put a moratorium on all development in known winter ranges. Obviously this would have a huge impact on private property rights. Maybe there is some kind of "greater public good" in protecting our wildlife resources since they have a significant economic and quality of life impact. But it feels like a pipe dream that it could ever happen.

Realistically, we have to improve the habitat that we have. Removing invasive and noxious weeds, juniper control, and take a closer look at grazing practices and fire. I do think predator control is part of the picture but most studies show it is most effective if highly concentrated around fawning in early June. I do find it ironic when hound hunters complain about poor deer hunting while releasing a dozen cats every winter in the winter ranges.

Other than that we as hunters also need to have a better understanding of deer biology, winter survival and population cycles. We can't act like the sky is falling after every winter kill. Yep, deer were doing great from a hunters perspective as recently as 2016. In the intervening years we have learned that while the population was high, their body condition was deteriorating. We've had a really bad run of tough winters over the last 8 years and the worst were in 2016-17 and 2022-23. No matter what we do it's gonna take some time to recover from that.

I'll second the biologist interviews on the Rokcast. Many good interviews that offer perspective and understanding on the current situation specifically and mule deer biology in general. I think there is reason to be optimistic. Despite all the doom and gloom my hunting partner and I have killed 3 bucks aged at 5.5-6.5 in the last 2 years in general season areas in different parts of the state, and we are not scouting every weekend big buck hunters.

 

[steelheadmike]

Habitat. Habitat. Habitat.

Over-winter survival is the single most important factor impacting herd size and health. It's a double whammy on mule deer when the available winter habitat has been reduced in size and then the corridors to get to that habitat have been disrupted.

I'm all for predator control but a case could be made that vehicle collisions cause more mortality on the winter range than cats or wolves.

 

[Buglebrush]

Option 4 is something we can actually do and it would make a real difference! Need to kill way more cats!

 

[AHayes111]

I agree about the lions. The hound hunting populace has moved more towards "tree 'em and free 'em" in the last decade. There is enough new houndsmen to really put a dent in the population though.
There is anecdotal evidence both ways on the elk vs deer on the winter range. Idea 3 is only based on areas that used to be deer-heavy now being dominated by elk. Seems the deer fail to recover much even in ideal conditions, and the only changed variable is a huge increase in the elk population. The areas I'm using as evidence don't have much (if any) real development going on. This idea could be completely wrong.

Don't over look the human factor with elk. Elk attract a lot of humans with rifles and that could also be contributing to tough times for mule deer.

 

[crossone]

My own personal conspiracy theory is that the aerial spraying by DARPA is responsible for the decimated mule deer, pronghorn, forest grouse, and sage hen populations. It may be from another source of poison but it's definitely the result of large scale poisoning. I have no evidence for this other than watching the eastward creep of these animal populations. In the late 1980s and early 1990s there were grand populations of all of these animals in the entire state. Great mule deer numbers could be found in very northern Idaho, along the Snake and Salmon rivers around Lewiston, and across the breadth of Southern Idaho. Pronghorn populations were in the thousands from Boise to Island Park and from Salmon to the Owyhees. Sage hens were very abundant all across southern Idaho and it was a favorite September activity in Northern Idaho to drive the forest roads and shoot Blue and Ruffed grouse. Within the next 10 to 15 years, all of these populations, from Idaho's forested northern border to its southern border with Utah and Nevada and from Oregon to Wyoming, were destroyed. Montana and Wyoming's populations of these animals held out for an additional 5 to 10 years but now their wildlife populations are being destroyed, from west to east. Elk, whitetails, and moose seem to be fairly immune from whatever poison has been distributed so they planted wolves to decimate those populations.

Lots of folks on here will probably say that I'm an idiot or a fool for saying this, but I'm from northern Idaho and live in south eastern Idaho and I have no other way to explain how the alpine mule deer herds in Boundary County and the Salmon River mule deer herds in Central Idaho and the desert mule deer herds in southern Idaho all tanked in the mid 1990's. I hunted pronghorns north of the Salmon River in the late 1980's where they no longer exist. I've lived in and hunted pretty much everywhere in Idaho over the past 40 years except very southwestern Idaho and watched it happen. The landscape looks pretty much the same now as it did 40 years ago, but these animal populations are all but gone.

 

[Blowdowner]

My own personal conspiracy theory is that the aerial spraying by DARPA is responsible for the decimated mule deer, pronghorn, forest grouse, and sage hen populations. It may be from another source of poison but it's definitely the result of large scale poisoning. I have no evidence for this other than watching the eastward creep of these animal populations. In the late 1980s and early 1990s there were grand populations of all of these animals in the entire state. Great mule deer numbers could be found in very northern Idaho, along the Snake and Salmon rivers around Lewiston, and across the breadth of Southern Idaho. Pronghorn populations were in the thousands from Boise to Island Park and from Salmon to the Owyhees. Sage hens were very abundant all across southern Idaho and it was a favorite September activity in Northern Idaho to drive the forest roads and shoot Blue and Ruffed grouse. Within the next 10 to 15 years, all of these populations, from Idaho's forested northern border to its southern border with Utah and Nevada and from Oregon to Wyoming, were destroyed. Montana and Wyoming's populations of these animals held out for an additional 5 to 10 years but now their wildlife populations are being destroyed, from west to east. Elk, whitetails, and moose seem to be fairly immune from whatever poison has been distributed so they planted wolves to decimate those populations.

Lots of folks on here will probably say that I'm an idiot or a fool for saying this, but I'm from northern Idaho and live in south eastern Idaho and I have no other way to explain how the alpine mule deer herds in Boundary County and the Salmon River mule deer herds in Central Idaho and the desert mule deer herds in southern Idaho all tanked in the mid 1990's. I hunted pronghorns north of the Salmon River in the late 1980's where they no longer exist. I've lived in and hunted pretty much everywhere in Idaho over the past 40 years except very southwestern Idaho and watched it happen. The landscape looks pretty much the same now as it did 40 years ago, but these animal populations are all but gone.

Well that sounds totally bonkers but at least you admit you know it sounds that way and simply nothing else makes sense. When I was in New Zealand they were dropping poison by helicopter everywhere on the South Island. It was bait pellets to kill mongoose. They're bad for birds of course but here's the catch - because mongoose fur is actually decent for coats, trapping them made a good number of families absolutely independent of the ruling authorities (President Jacinda Arden the insane cocaine addict witch). AND YOU CAN'T HAVE THAT IN THIS DAY AND AGE.

 

[Pacific_Fork]

Have we mentioned habitat yet? Maybe if all the big uber wealthy hunting influencers and orgs put money behind politicians who could help stop development through various means like zoning laws etc the deer would have a chance. Developers grease the wheel in local and state politics and they win becuse they have no competition. Hunters (including myself) aren’t involved AT ALL. It’s sad, mule deer will be wiped off the earth shortly because they don’t know how to adapt. Once mom’s migration range is gone she’s cooked dead, they just don’t learn new summer/winter range once theirs is gone.

 

[braydencase7]

My own personal conspiracy theory is that the aerial spraying by DARPA is responsible for the decimated mule deer, pronghorn, forest grouse, and sage hen populations. It may be from another source of poison but it's definitely the result of large scale poisoning. I have no evidence for this other than watching the eastward creep of these animal populations. In the late 1980s and early 1990s there were grand populations of all of these animals in the entire state. Great mule deer numbers could be found in very northern Idaho, along the Snake and Salmon rivers around Lewiston, and across the breadth of Southern Idaho. Pronghorn populations were in the thousands from Boise to Island Park and from Salmon to the Owyhees. Sage hens were very abundant all across southern Idaho and it was a favorite September activity in Northern Idaho to drive the forest roads and shoot Blue and Ruffed grouse. Within the next 10 to 15 years, all of these populations, from Idaho's forested northern border to its southern border with Utah and Nevada and from Oregon to Wyoming, were destroyed. Montana and Wyoming's populations of these animals held out for an additional 5 to 10 years but now their wildlife populations are being destroyed, from west to east. Elk, whitetails, and moose seem to be fairly immune from whatever poison has been distributed so they planted wolves to decimate those populations.

Lots of folks on here will probably say that I'm an idiot or a fool for saying this, but I'm from northern Idaho and live in south eastern Idaho and I have no other way to explain how the alpine mule deer herds in Boundary County and the Salmon River mule deer herds in Central Idaho and the desert mule deer herds in southern Idaho all tanked in the mid 1990's. I hunted pronghorns north of the Salmon River in the late 1980's where they no longer exist. I've lived in and hunted pretty much everywhere in Idaho over the past 40 years except very southwestern Idaho and watched it happen. The landscape looks pretty much the same now as it did 40 years ago, but these animal populations are all but gone.

Wasn't there a nasty winter 92/93?

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