Can holdover be more accurate than dialing in a hunting scope?

[roosiebull]

You have completely missed the point of the post. 100% agree that a scope that tracks repeatedly and predictably/ holds zero is more accurate than holding. But those scopes are few and far between and not practical for the average + hunter.

I think a scope that doesn’t dial accurately probably doesn’t hold zero either, I don’t think holding over solves any problems in that regard… holding over has its place, but I don’t think it makes anything more accurate, and maybe not faster depending on the person

 

[BPAZ223]

I think a scope that doesn’t dial accurately probably doesn’t hold zero either, I don’t think holding over solves any problems in that regard… holding over has its place, but I don’t think it makes anything more accurate, and maybe not faster depending on the person

I think they're talking about the days of capped turrets that needed a penny to turn them so you'd zero at 200 or 300 and then hold over or under. A ton of deer and elk have been killed that way. Nowadays you can get a hunting scope that has zero stop turrets, a christmas tree reticle so you can hold or dial or both.

 

[lefthandedasian]

His information is already garbled garbage that he’s paid to regurgitate by companies pushing product sales. Take it with the heavy dose of salt it requires.


I’d like to see you make first round hits at 600 yard pie plates “with ease” in field conditions, especially holding over with MPBR like you’re saying. You obviously haven’t tested that theory, even with no wind.


You may want to converse for more than the two hours you’ve been a member before assuming you’re better than 99% of shooters on here.

Whoa guy, I was just responding to Dobermann's post saying people who use holdover "fuddlore" wound animals. I also stated that with enough practice holdover can be effective.

Also never said I was better than anyone. Just merely stating a fact that the majority of shooters can't call wind easily for first round impacts. Whether you're dialing or using holdovers wind will cause a bad shot and wound an animal before a holdover will.

No need to compare dicks.

 

[lefthandedasian]

Sure, probably. But what does that have to do with anything? Does using MPBR endow you with a mastery of how to read wind?

Also, and this is a genuine question, what exactly is Ron Spomer's experience with long range shooting? Given his attitude, I've never actually looked into the guy. Is he a useful source of information when it comes to long range?

I realized my comment is probably confusing people because this is a "better than" thread. I was just responding to Dobermann's post saying people who use holdover "fuddlore" wound animals. Basically I was just saying that people who dial can also have bad shots because of wind. Dialing isn't the fix all unless you have a kestrel and can read the wind properly.

Also I don't think Ron is any good at long rang shooting. He writes for hunting magazines and has a plethora of knowledge for hunting, but aside from that most of his shots are under 400. Definitely within hold over territory, hence accurate enough to bag an animal. Dialing seems time consuming and unnecessary if you can use MPBR and aim dead center of the vitals and still hit them out to about 300 yards. If you dial, you usually you have to sight in to 100 or so and then dial to an animal out to 300 which takes more time and thought process. MPBR you literally aim and shoot, no extra thinking or time needed. It's plenty accurate for hunting but you ain't gonna shoot moa groups easily in paper all day

 

[JohnJohnson]

Dialing seems time consuming and unnecessary if you can use MPBR and aim dead center of the vitals and still hit them out to about 300 yards. If you dial, you usually you have to sight in to 100 or so and then dial to an animal out to 300 which takes more time and thought process. MPBR you literally aim and shoot, no extra thinking or time needed.

I feel like people grossly exaggerate the time it takes to dial (which is about 1 second) and also underestimate how much more time it takes to hold for elevation. Holding for elevation (especially when you also have to hold for wind) requires more time (via re-checking throughout the aiming process) than dialing and just shooting would.

 

[BPAZ223]

Oh man some of the posts in here.

Holding definitely works, just reference the horus reticles. They sponsored competition teams and did long range hunting things to prove that it worked and wasn't some kind of voodoo. Now hunter scopes with holdover reticles and tactical scopes with christmas trees are the big sellers so obviously hunters are using them. Leupolds boone and crockett has always been a good seller.

The key thing is practice, practice, practice.

Unfortunately there aren't a lot of places where you can do it. I'm lucky in that there's a long range club and a couple informal ranges less than an hour away that go past a thousand but a lot of other states its a special membership club, or there isn't one at all. I think in florida the manatee club went to five hundred and there was a thousand yard club in the very south of the state.

*and no, dialing shot corrections isn't quicker, if you have a milling reticle hold your corrections so that you don't lose your sight picture

 

[Seth5005]

Definitely dial.

 

[Formidilosus]

Oh man some of the posts in here.

Holding definitely works, just reference the horus reticles. They sponsored competition teams and did long range hunting things to prove that it worked and wasn't some kind of voodoo. Now hunter scopes with holdover reticles and tactical scopes with christmas trees are the big sellers so obviously hunters are using them.

No one using holdover in open field matches win anything.

 

[JohnJohnson]

*and no, dialing shot corrections isn't quicker, if you have a milling reticle hold your corrections so that you don't lose your sight picture

Unless you're glassing for animals with your scope, you do not have a sight picture at the time of seeing one. You see it with the naked eye or binoculars. Then you have to range it, which requires you not having a sight picture through your scope because you're using a rangefinder, and then part of the process of getting the gun in position is 1 second of dialing your elevation. It is not a complicated or lengthy process.

just reference the horus reticles

Those ungodly eyesores that you pay $400 extra for and are almost universally hated by LR shooters?

Now hunter scopes with holdover reticles and tactical scopes with christmas trees are the big sellers so obviously hunters are using them

The christmas tree stuff reflects what manufacturers are selling, not what hunters are using. I'd bet my life savings that 99% or more of hunters with christmas tree reticle scopes are not using the tree.

 

[TaperPin]

It still makes me chuckle that many people find it easy to hold in the center of a object, but then look at a deer and 1/4, 3/4, or on the back holds are just too hard to figure out. Lol


If a hold is off a few inches at a 400 yards with a relatively large 2-1/2 moa kill zone, does it matter? No.

Out at 600 yards the kill zone has shrunk to 1-2/3 moa. Even if someone has exact ranging and light consistent wind, the margin for error is much less. If someone can’t connect with a hold on the back at 400, they aren’t going to do any better at 600 under ideal conditions dialed to exact yardage. 600 is easily twice as difficult to get first round hits as 400.

The other advantage to a 300 yard zero is it’s not that many moa to dial moderate ranges like 500 yards (+5 moa) or 600 yards (+8 moa). At least on my scopes that’s not even a complete revolution, which greatly reduces chances for a goof up. At the range guys are constantly getting confused twisting in an extra complete turn and can’t hit the broad side of a barn - with no stress and ideal conditions - not a great recipe for success.

 

[JohnJohnson]

The other advantage to a 300 yard zero is it’s not that many moa to dial moderate ranges like 500 yards (+5 moa) or 600 yards (+8 moa). At least on my scopes that’s not even a complete revolution, which greatly reduces chances for a goof up.

So I ran the numbers for my 6.5CM with a 16.5" barrel which puts out 143 ELD-X at 2600 fps muzzle velocity. 600 yards isn't even 15 MOA with my 100 yard zero. So that's not even a full revolution on hunting scopes, let alone the scopes that are designed for longer range stuff that you dial a lot which are almost uniformly 25 MOA per revolution.

I think this is an invented problem with regards to hunting. Especially given that zero stops exist.

 

[TaperPin]

So I ran the numbers for my 6.5CM with a 16.5" barrel which puts out 143 ELD-X at 2600 fps muzzle velocity. 600 yards isn't even 15 MOA with my 100 yard zero. So that's not even a full revolution on hunting scopes, let alone the scopes that are designed for longer range stuff that you dial a lot which are almost uniformly 25 MOA per revolution.

I think this is an invented problem with regards to hunting. Especially given that zero stops exist.

I’m not suggesting that it’s a universal problem, but it’s apparently a problem for some of the guys at the range who can’t keep it straight. Not all scopes have a zero stop.

I shouldn’t be so hard on guys learning their equipment - if it was easy everyone would be shooting at long range.

 

[Shō[t]gun]

It still makes me chuckle that many people find it easy to hold in the center of a object, but then look at a deer and 1/4, 3/4, or on the back holds are just too hard to figure out. Lol

Nobody said it was hard to figure out, it just doesn't work out to less time or more accurate hits in the field... or anywhere. Guessing distance and fractions of deer takes way more time than a quick dial. Sure, some jamokes at the range with no experience treat turrets like a Bop-It toy, but there are idiots with all systems.

Example 1: 450y from the chart you posted with the 3 books (not sure if you use 1/3's or 1/4's anymore). Range it. Hold 1/3 chest depth over the back with a 10mph R->L crosswind adding a 10" wind hold. Aiming point is the base of the ear. Any movement at all and your reference point changes, if the wind is the other direction or deer turns around you're just aiming into empty space over the back. And still, these instructions do not make any reference on how to adjust for different cartridges/velocities.



Example 2: Range deer at 450y. Dial turret to 450, hold just over 2moa wind. Boom.

 

[GSPHUNTER]

BDC is a pretty good option for traditional hunting ranges. My only gripes are that it only works on max power which a lot of times is 15-16x, and a lot of them don’t have wind hashes down by the holdover subtensions. It’s kind of annoying if you change ammo or elevation often too. I’ve actually slowed down my preferred reload recipe to have it perfectly align with the 100 yard increments and it was pretty slick. Now I prefer a custom yardage dial and that’s my favorite combo yet. Pretty fool proof and quick.

I have come to like my scope with BDC. Set it on max power and know the distance.

 

[TaperPin]

not sure if you use 1/3's or 1/4's anymore

For my rifle it’s 1/4 over the back, but in the example you are referring to, TexAg10’s rifle has a little more curve to the trajectory at 450 so 1/3 simply fit his trajectory better. For a 77gr TMK the hold would be half a body over the back @450, 1/4@425, right on the back at 400. It’s not a short cut to avoid understanding a rifle’s trajectory, or the size of the critter. There are many cartridges I wouldn’t use this method on at 450, although most work well out to 400. Same for using a 2 moa wind hold - works well on flat shooting combinations, but isn’t enough for something slower like a 223 that is almost twice that at 450.

Like people, deer come in all shapes and sizes - I’ve seen big deer at their peak that reminded me of desert deer and had a rather slim body, and another was short in the body with extra depth like a bull dog. Normally the differences aren’t enough to change a hold, but I’ve added or subtracted a little to hedge the bet a little.

The pictures are good - I’m not sure on the chest depth of whitetail vs mule deer, but if they were mule deer size it would work. The 2nd photo is a little more than 1/3 over the back, but within an inch or two.

 

[ddowning]

Holy argument. All the systems will work. I have used them all. I started with the dreaded Kentucky windage. Out to 400 yards with a fast cartridge it was okay. Past that things got dicy fast. In wind over 10 mph things got dicy fast. I would probably be better at it now, as I can actually shoot somewhat well now. I would never go back to it unless I was stuck with no other option. I would carry a rifle with a 3 lb brick of a scope before I would go back to duplex and Kentucky windage.

Shooting game animals isn't difficult at normal hunting distances. The vitals are large, so people who have not been trained first and followed it up with a lot of shooting like to argue about how to do it. I have shot a lot of PResque matches and a fist full of nrl hunter matches. I am not holding over unless forced to. It is absolutely faster to dial than hold over unless you have the holds memorized before the stage starts. This is not possible when spot and stalk hunting as you need to range the animal. It might work stand or blind hunting, but I still prefer to dial.

Christmas tree reticles suck. If there weren't stages that required no dialing, I would get rid of every tree reticle I own immediately. We were shooting a mile for kicks and grins last weekend with a 243AI and the number of shots that I missed splash on because the tree reticle blocked the splash was more than I wanted. It was a simple scr2 reticle.

After using every method, I can say they will all work for a skilled shooter. The best and fastest method is to dial in a half mil of elevation and hunt. You can hold .5 under if you want to shoot a flea off a tick at 100 yards or shoot to 250 yards on deer without touching the scope. After that, dialing elevation and holding wind is by far the best combo of speed/accuracy. Go to a prs match and ask some questions. The sport is mature enough now, if there were better methods, the winners would be using them.

Also, holding animals or inches of wind will only get you so far. This winter we had a hunt in conditions that required a 1.2 mil wind hold on a 228 yard shot through a small hole in the brush. I could not have made that shot without a mil or moa reticle to precisely adjust for the gusting wind.

Arguing that all methods will work is different from arguing which is best.

To the op. MOST tactical scopes designed for dialing will dial very accurately now days. The zero retention is what is questionable. Some scopes do alright without abuse and others are quite fragile. I have had good luck with Burris xtr 2,3,pro with no abuse and even a couple hard drops. I have not had good luck with even the razors from vortex. Bushnell elite tactical, nightforce, trijicon, maven, swfa all are well regarded by guys on here. There are scopes in the $1k us dollar range that will work. I managed that on a very meager income in a different career. I would focus on 1 good scope and move it from rifle to rifle to start.

 

[Outdoorsman12b]

This simply isn’t the case at all. When SWFA actually had stock, we brought many of them up. Thru the proper channels. It takes a little more time and money, but can be done.

Also, Trij, NF, Bushy Elite Tac, Burris XTR- and probably a few others I’m forgetting- are readily available north of the 49th.

This. I’ve taken game with only holding and dialing. Holds will only be an advantage in a very select few situations. Most of the time a disadvantage, in that it lowers precision/accuracy. And the speed benefits are overblown.

Ok thanks @Wrongside. If you can PM me details on how you import that would be appreciated. Does not seem that will help at the moment anyways. The other scopes you’re mentioning I have somewhat already addressed in original post.

 

[KenLee]

I realized my comment is probably confusing people because this is a "better than" thread. I was just responding to Dobermann's post saying people who use holdover "fuddlore" wound animals. Basically I was just saying that people who dial can also have bad shots because of wind. Dialing isn't the fix all unless you have a kestrel and can read the wind properly.

Also I don't think Ron is any good at long rang shooting. He writes for hunting magazines and has a plethora of knowledge for hunting, but aside from that most of his shots are under 400. Definitely within hold over territory, hence accurate enough to bag an animal. Dialing seems time consuming and unnecessary if you can use MPBR and aim dead center of the vitals and still hit them out to about 300 yards. If you dial, you usually you have to sight in to 100 or so and then dial to an animal out to 300 which takes more time and thought process. MPBR you literally aim and shoot, no extra thinking or time needed. It's plenty accurate for hunting but you ain't gonna shoot moa groups easily in paper all day

400 yards and in, I'm not dialing for anything big...ever. I'm shooting when I get the chance. Maybe for a crappy yote. My old ass zeros at 200 and holds over based on what my actual experience w the rifle and round has told me for near that distance. Close enough is really close enough, even though I do have some good scopes.

 

[bitterroot_reaper]

This answer is going to straddle the fence a little, but here we go....

First off, you need to define your desired accuracy. If you are looking at Minute of Elk, and not, consistent, sub-MOA accuracy a BDC reticle will be fine to 400+/- yards (further the more practice time one puts in). If your desired accuracy is sub-MOA at all distances, dialing elevation will be the answer.

As stated in an earlier reply, there are many reasons for this; but a big one is the eye's natural desire to look at the center of the reticle (although practice will solve some of this). Under stress (and the opportunity to harvest your desired game animal is stress) you will revert to your lowest level of training. So if a hunter does not practice with that specific rifle and reticle, you will naturally try to revert to the center of the reticle, causing the potential for a significant reduction in accuracy and/or missed shots or wounded game.

Moreover, a "busy" reticle with numerous elevation hashmarks can be very accurate, but again it takes practice. If a hunter has memorized the subtensions, and can place the intended target on a specific elevation mark, it can be accurate and repeatable. This is an area we train our shooters on so they can place accurate shots, under stress, in the event the need arises.

To summarize, reticle-based elevation adjustments, or hold-overs, are a solid option. To achieve the necessary accuracy, practice is required.

Moving on to dial turrets with budget-minded scopes. Let me start by saying, I would prefer a mediocre rifle, and use the cash saved on the firearm to purchase better quality glass. I can make most rifles shoot better with some fine-tuning on the workbench and the loading bench, you can never make improvements to mediocre glass. For sub-MOA accuracy, using a turret with known click values will increase accuracy at distance over holdovers.

That said, there are budget-friendly manufacturers that produce decent glass on a budget. To save on the hate mail, I will keep it general and not specific. Each of these scopes will return to zero.....for a while. There are two main issues with this, and both can be overcome.
1) The adjustments in the rector dial, for lesser-quality scopes, are not typically true. Meaning .25MOA or .1mil is NOT accurate. You can, however, determine the exact value of each click by spending some time on the range and measuring the point of impact over/under the elevation adjustment. This takes time and ammo, but you can gain good data and understand how to dial your rifle accurately. AND you can make the click value adjustments for your scope/rifle in most ballistic apps; taking out the guesswork.
2) Rector spring quality! This is the fly in the ointment.....the more you use the dial, the weaker the spring becomes. This is true with ALL scopes and should be considered a wear item. In lesser-quality scopes, this spring will lose spring tension more rapidly than its more expensive kin. This causes two issues:
a) Zero shift, or as stated in the thread, failure to return to zero.
b) change in elevation click value

In effect, the more you dial the turret, the weaker the spring becomes. To overcome this, set a schedule to take the rifle to the range and verify click values are unchanged and the rifle returns to your set zero. IF there is a change, my suggestion is to send the scope back for rector springs and new gas. This will breathe some new life into the scope.

In conclusion, this option gets you the cake and you can eat it too. You have an affordable dial turret scope with a functional reticle, now you have the option to do both depending on your situation.

Walked that fence like a pro. LOL

 

[General RE LEE]

I shoot multiple times a week and im starting to shoot off my reticle more than dial. Hitting an 8” plate at 600 yards with an accurate 6.5 Creedmoor Handload and a good reticle like the Zeiss #68 is very doable. In a matter of fact, I don’t see a discernible difference in hit rate out to 600 yards between dialing or holding off on a good reticle.

800 and 1K I prefer to dial, especially 1K.

I really like the Zeiss #68. It’s a 1 MOA value SFP but I shoot almost exclusively at 8x thus a 2 MOA value.