Can holdover be more accurate than dialing in a hunting scope?

[Shō[t]gun]

BDC is a pretty good option for traditional hunting ranges. My only gripes are that it only works on max power which a lot of times is 15-16x, and a lot of them don’t have wind hashes down by the holdover subtensions. It’s kind of annoying if you change ammo or elevation often too. I’ve actually slowed down my preferred reload recipe to have it perfectly align with the 100 yard increments and it was pretty slick. Now I prefer a custom yardage dial and that’s my favorite combo yet. Pretty fool proof and quick.

 

[Outdoorsman12b]

I think 400 yds in is very doable (and simpler- for me anyway) with holdovers.

Definitely practice (ditto on dialing) a bunch. I shot my ram last year at 400 yards with a holdover reticle with no drama.

What were you using?

 

[TaperPin]

That was the standard for a long time. The lack of reliability in that system led to a lot of fudd myths about ballistics and people abandoned it for good reason when rangefinders and consistent dialing became affordable.

You must be confusing what I said with “maximum point blank range”. Not the same thing. Rangefinders have definitely been the biggest thing to ever happen to long range shooting.

 

[hereinaz]

If you can't obtain or the best you can afford is a BDC scope that doesn't dial, here's one "techie" way to use a BDC for holdovers accurately. Depending on the scope and the cartridge, you might make it work approaching 500 yards.

Zero at 100.
Shoot groups at 100 using the different hash marks.
Measure how high they go above zero.

Get your velocity and punch your info into a ballistic calculator.

Then, use that data to match up what yard line/distances the hashes represent. Then, test those hash marks to confirm.

For practice, put targets at various distances inside 450 and learn how to use the BDC reticle and add "Kentucky windage" to hit.

A .243/.270/30-06 will be different than slower cartridges. The BC of the bullet doesn't matter quite as much as velocity inside 400.

Beside practicing elevation, you need to get in the wind and start shooting, especially for slower velocity cartridges.

A hunter can learn to be plenty deadly with enough practice if the scope holds zero and you use the same bullet.

 

[Shō[t]gun]

If you can't obtain or the best you can afford is a BDC scope that doesn't dial, here's one "techie" way to use a BDC for holdovers accurately. Depending on the scope and the cartridge, you might make it work approaching 500 yards.

Zero at 100.
Shoot groups at 100 using the different hash marks.
Measure how high they go above zero.

Get your velocity and punch your info into a ballistic calculator.

Then, use that data to match up what yard line/distances the hashes represent. Then, test those hash marks to confirm.

For practice, put targets at various distances inside 450 and learn how to use the BDC reticle and add "Kentucky windage" to hit.

A .243/.270/30-06 will be different than slower cartridges. The BC of the bullet doesn't matter quite as much as velocity inside 400.

Beside practicing elevation, you need to get in the wind and start shooting, especially for slower velocity cartridges.

A hunter can learn to be plenty deadly with enough practice if the scope holds zero and you use the same bullet.

Another trick I used was a “reverse zero” by adjusting the elevation dial to have impacts align at the furthest distance. Say you’re 8” low at the 600y hash, adjust it to be dead on, then you’ll be a lot closer at the other further distances and max out the offset at 1.25MOA at 100y which doesn’t really matter at all.

 

[Shō[t]gun]

You must be confusing what I said with “maximum point blank range”. Not the same thing. Rangefinders have definitely been the biggest thing to ever happen to long range shooting.

I was referring to the deer-size holdovers usually coinciding with a duplex reticle. There is no excuse for that anymore. It’s guessing at best.

 

[PNWGATOR]

Build a solid foundation based on a systematic approach to riflemanship and trust the system. It’ll prove that dialing for elevation and holding for wind is the most efficient and consistent.

 

[Outdoorsman12b]

Build a solid foundation based on a systematic approach to riflemanship and trust the system. It’ll prove that dialing for elevation and holding for wind is the most efficient and consistent.

I’m into it! With consideration to my OP please suggest combo.

 

[Tmac]

I think 400 yds in is very doable (and simpler- for me anyway) with holdovers.

Definitely practice (ditto on dialing) a bunch. I shot my ram last year at 400 yards with a holdover reticle with no drama.

Same, except I prefer a regular duplex style reticle to 400.

I use a mpbr style method with a 200 zero or just a little higher, to 250ish. With what I shoot, for mature MD sized stuff, hold little high, but on hair at 300, 6-8” above zero ish. Then on top of back or a touchish more at 350, an ear and halfish above the back at 400. A method borne of decades of hunting before I had reliable dialing scopes.

Don’t even talk to me about the days before rangefinders, but yes the bottom of the duplex, where thick and thin met, could be dialed, with the power ring to be a 300 yard zero. A dialing of a different sort with a SFP scope.

So knowing where to hold on my quarry based on its size to 400 for deer and larger game is how I roll. The smaller the game, the shorter my where to hold max range becomes and dialing comes into play. Smaller deer/pronghorn are more likely to have me dialing much past 350.

I‘d suggest there is no best way, there are many ways. Pick your method and practice it.

 

[hereinaz]

I’m into it! With consideration to my OP please suggest combo.

Can you get Leupold scopes?

When you say “reliable dialing scopes” are you going by Form’s ultimate drop test?

 

[Outdoorsman12b]

Can you get Leupold scopes?

When you say “reliable dialing scopes” are you going by Form’s ultimate drop test?

I’m open to whatever you have to suggest. Yes can get Leupold.

 

[Shō[t]gun]

Yes. They don't have any dealer here and Obama added them to the list of "bad things" when he was in office. So can't be imported directly.

Weird. Is that just when purchasing from their website? Curious if eBay would be an option.

 

[EdP]

I think a lot of folks on here (not me necessarily) don't think a scope that won't dial repeatably also won't hold zero. If you are of that opinion, a BDC reticle can't be trusted to be on target as expected either. If a scope will dial repeatedly, then the precision available exceeds that available from a BDC/holdover reticle except for the specific ranges that correspond to the reticle subtensions.

I don't know what folks mean by "bdc reticle execution." A BDC reticle has fixed subtensions, the value of which depends only on magnification level after manufacture. Is there a thought that the magnification level at max setting is inconsistent? If so, that would introduce an error.

I find a BDC reticle quick and easy to use out to most ranges I am willing to shoot game. That is after I have established a zero range (usually around 200 yds), and confirmed subtension values.

 

[sveltri]

Life was so much simpler when I went and re-"zeroed" my rifle, duplex reticle, that hadn't been touched for a year one week before the season opened. 200 yard zero, held 6" over for 300 and top of an elks back at 400. I figured you had to be a military trained sniper to kill beyond 500. Please note that I said simpler not more successful or accurate.

 

[hereinaz]

I’m open to whatever you have to suggest. Yes can get Leupold.

Get the best scope you can for the money you have. Consider used scopes as well.

There are Leupold scopes with decent reticles.

And, Burris (XTR II) and Bushnell (match pro) make inexpensive dialing scopes. And, decent scopes with BDC.

Not every budget scope loses zero, it’s just the frequency is higher. I have cheap scopes that haven’t lost zero.

 

[Shō[t]gun]

I’m open to whatever you have to suggest. Yes can get Leupold.

Primary Arms Apollo 6.5 CM is probably the best version of a BDC I'm aware of. FFP, marked drops every 50y out to 1k, and wind holds at each distance. I've thought about picking one up a few times. It would likely match up nice with quite a few modern hunting cartridges other than 6.5cm as well.

 

[TaperPin]

I was referring to the deer-size holdovers usually coinciding with a duplex reticle. There is no excuse for that anymore. It’s guessing at best.

For every shooting system, each person has their limitations. Personally I find it silly to dial a scope to 400 yards. The OP was about relatively short range. Using animal chest to back as a guide for holdover has worked quite well for many people who can visualize in 1/4s.

 

[Shō[t]gun]

For every shooting system, each person has their limitations. Personally I find it silly to dial a scope to 400 yards. The OP was about relatively short range. Using animal chest to back as a guide for holdover has worked quite well for many people who can visualize in 1/4s.

Why is it silly? Thats ~30" of drop at 400.
If you're already ranging, looking at a drop chart, and eyeballing a rough holdover, why not just spin a dial real quick or line up with a BDC hash to be accurate?

 

[Formidilosus]

After listening to some of @robby denning points on the Shoot to Hunt podcast regarding steps/time for holdover vs. dial, and consideration of the all the scope evals/proficiency ranges of hunters by @Formidilosus I started to wonder if holding over is actually more effective in cost and accuracy for the average hunter. Here me out...

No it isn’t. I’m not into coddling incorrect beliefs born of ignorance or incompetence.

1. Most hunting scopes cannot dial accurately or return to zero consistently. Hold overs don't change (assuming the reticle is correctly calibrated).

Show me a modern scope that won’t dial correctly, but that stays zeroed?

1. A lot of engagements are under 400 yards (most far less). With a 100 or 200 yard zero on an "average" cartridge your looking at less than 20-30 inches of drop. Less with a "good" cartridge.

Ok.

1. A mil based reticle with .5 mil increments in holds is fairly intuitive, and out to 400 yards ranges that are not exactly lining up with 200, 300, 400 yards are solved by the trajectory of holding between the .5 mil increments.

Yes. Until you add in between ticks, wind, stress, and time. Then misses and longer times to first shot happen.

1. Using something in the 9X upper range like the Trijicon credo in mil square or Swaro Z3 BRH, you will be limited to tighter eye box, and suffer some loss of spotting impact. However, maybe more accurate than dialing a shot using something like a VX3HD CDS?

To 400 yards it’s ok holding in no wind, with wind any more than 1 mil or so of hold (300 yards) and issue scome up. The Swaro is fragile and doesn’t hold zero. The Credo is ok, but why are you limiting it to those options? The Credo can dial.

1. Budget is a barrier for many hunters. I am North of the border and SWFA is not an option. The only readily available brand that can dial repeatedly is Nightforce, and many cannot afford to top every rifle they have with one. Plus the reticles kind of suck.

I would get a Credo or Accupoint, check “tracking” and then dial.

So with a 200 yard zero your holding back out to 300 to keep maximum FOV, and after that you crank up to 9X and use the holds. To Robby's points this seems faster. You range the game, if its in 300 range aim shoot. If outside, crank up scope select hold shoot.

At 300- maybe. In general it is not faster to hit when you add in time, stress, wind, moving animals, etc.

What say you? Would you rather have a scope that is mediocre in adjustments? Or use a holdover with the above considerations?

Well since I don’t live in a binary world- I will take one that holds zero and dials.

 

[TaperPin]

Why is it silly? Thats ~30" of drop at 400.
If you're already ranging, looking at a drop chart, and eyeballing a rough holdover, why not just spin a dial real quick or line up with a BDC hash to be accurate?

At 400 I don‘t have to take eye off to look at a table or spin a dial - with a 300 yard zero the 400 yard hold is right on the back and Bang Bang. Most people find it pretty easy to hold on the back. Even 450 is easy - the 15” drop when looking at a mule deer that’s around 20” chest to back isn’t a lot of mental math - it’s 1/4 of a deer chest high over the back. Antelope are about 16” deep - at the same 450 yards it’s holding half a chest over the back.

Up to the distances we’re talking about I also tell kids to just use a 2 moa full wind call and skip the chart. At 300 yards that’s twice the actual drift, but it doesn’t matter - being off 3” left to right is nothing and it didn’t require taking eyes off to look at the chart.

On paper this doesn’t sound difficult. In the field I’ve been right next to inexperienced hunters and they connected just fine a number of times at 400 and 450. At that distance the kill zone is close to 2.5 moa - in calm conditions it doesn’t take a great shooter to connect on the first shot.

There’s room in this world for all types of shooters - if you don’t find value in this, do what does make sense for you. For those of us that have a long history with it, practice and hunt his way it’s quite efficient, easy to remember and easy to teach.

I kind of like it when shooting rocks with my nephew, when he pulls out his chart and starts to dial about the time my rifle goes off. Lol