Can Colorado OTC Elk Last Forever?

[Ucsdryder]

I get a hotel every time I go to Colorado as do most of my friends. I typically spend about $500 minimum in Colorado every time I visit. Not counting the license.....

So I'm not so sure you really know what the hell your talking about.

Its doesn't surprise me though. Most people dont.

Lol, A whole 500 dollars?! Tax revenue off that is 40 bucks. THANK YOU for keep Colorado afloat! I figured I’d get you guys riled up. Too easy…

If you get out and camp instead of snuggling up with your down comforter in a hotel, you’d be amazed at how your success rates will go up!



that was a joke, settle down!

 

[MallardSX2]

Its jackjoffs like you that fuel the fire and have us where we are at today.

All hating each other with your STUPID "Jokes".

 

[Jaquomo]

IMO we should be figuring out how to lower license costs for everyone. Not raise them to reduce competition.

Where is the money being wasted?
What programs are draining these multi-million dollar budgets on a yearly basis?
How can Colorado and other western states improve efficiencies to cut costs?

The answer always seems to be "raise the costs". Is the money really the issue?

The money is being wasted on non-hunting related initiatives. Migrating songbird studies. Wolves... Human-wildlife conflicts. CPW's cost of doing business has increased exponentially due to a myriad of factors, including an exploding population. Yet license costs are basically the same as they were 30 years ago, adjusted for inflation

 

[dtowneclipse]

Lol, A whole 500 dollars?! Tax revenue off that is 40 bucks. THANK YOU for keep Colorado afloat! I figured I’d get you guys riled up. Too easy…

If you get out and camp instead of snuggling up with your down comforter in a hotel, you’d be amazed at how your success rates will go up!



that was a joke, settle down!

Doesn't seem like much....but when you figure the 1000's of NR that come in and support alot of these small towns it adds up. Alot of the local shops in these hunting towns would not make it without NR and the revenues they make off of us....add in the tax dollars as well.

I spend 500-1000 bux every year in CO.....I spend 2 weeks in a tent in the mountains and my success rate is pretty good ......maybe it would go up If I started sleeping with a down comforter???

 

[dtowneclipse]

The money is being wasted on non-hunting related initiatives. Migrating songbird studies. Wolves... Human-wildlife conflicts. CPW's cost of doing business has increased exponentially due to a myriad of factors, including an exploding population. Yet license costs are basically the same as they were 30 years ago, adjusted for inflation

NR bull tag was approximately 50 bucks in 1980, average yearly inflation since then has been 2-3%. Overshooting at 250% over the past 40 years would put todays prices around 125 for a NR bull tag....so no, the prices are not basically the same as they were 30 years ago.

I may be off some in my quick math....someone correct me if I am wrong.

 

[Ucsdryder]

Doesn't seem like much....but when you figure the 1000's of NR that come in and support alot of these small towns it adds up. Alot of the local shops in these hunting towns would not make it without NR and the revenues they make off of us....add in the tax dollars as well.

I spend 500-1000 bux every year in CO.....I spend 2 weeks in a tent in the mountains and my success rate is pretty good ......maybe it would go up If I started sleeping with a down comforter???

Seems like a valid argument but take this into consideration. You spend 500 a year to support local business and 8% tax on that 500 to support the state of colorado? As a resident I spend that in a couple of days between gas, groceries, home, income tax, going out, etc. if that’s the arguement then my tag should be free and yours should be 5k. That’s not even bringing into consideration the cost of living in Colorado which is right in line with the most expensive states in the country at this point. Gas is 3.50, houses are 600-800k, etc etc.

If you’re smart you live in Kansas, the Dakota’s, etc and save 10s of thousands and then spend an extra 550 in a tag every year.

So the “we bring it money” isn’t a good arguement when you’re talking to residents that bring in money every day, not 1 week a year.

 

[dtowneclipse]

Seems like a valid argument but take this into consideration. You spend 500 a year to support local business and 8% tax on that 500 to support the state of colorado? As a resident I spend that in a couple of days between gas, groceries, home, income tax, going out, etc. if that’s the arguement then my tag should be free and yours should be 5k. That’s not even bringing into consideration the cost of living in Colorado which is right in line with the most expensive states in the country at this point. Gas is 3.50, houses are 600-800k, etc etc.

If you’re smart you live in Kansas, the Dakota’s, etc and save 10s of thousands and then spend an extra 550 in a tag every year.

So the “we bring it money” isn’t a good arguement when you’re talking to residents that bring in money every day, not 1 week a year.

Residents are not "Bringing in the money". Its already there. You are already a part of the CO economy. Ask the small Mom and Pop businesses in alot of the small towns in SW Colorado - the CO residents "Bringing in the money" doesn't cut it. They would close without the surge of NR during hunting seasons. Does that affect CPW and prices on licenses/rules/quotas/etc.? I don't know, but with trickle up economics I would think so.

 

[Ucsdryder]

Residents are not "Bringing in the money". Its already there. You are already a part of the CO economy. Ask the small Mom and Pop businesses in alot of the small towns in SW Colorado - the CO residents "Bringing in the money" doesn't cut it. They would close without the surge of NR during hunting seasons. Does that affect CPW and prices on licenses/rules/quotas/etc.? I don't know, but with trickle up economics I would think so.

I guess my 4 scouting trips this year is already taken into consideration?

My point is the money you guys bring in isn’t even a drop in the ocean to anybody but cpw and maybe a couple of small business in towns like meeker. You guys made the argument about tax revenue, not me.

 

[Poser]

Residents are not "Bringing in the money". Its already there. You are already a part of the CO economy. Ask the small Mom and Pop businesses in alot of the small towns in SW Colorado - the CO residents "Bringing in the money" doesn't cut it. They would close without the surge of NR during hunting seasons. Does that affect CPW and prices on licenses/rules/quotas/etc.? I don't know, but with trickle up economics I would think so.

Observational, but I do see a lot of NR hunters in town during all seasons, even during lunch hours of open seasons, but also at hotels, grocery stores (this one is huge, local groceries even sell dry ice), laundry mats etc. the local sporting good store is a Sitka, Mystery Ranch, Swaro, Heather’s Choice and Crispi dealer. Being a town of less than 20k, I doubt the resident population justifies stocking the minimum orders on any of those brands and there are guys who walk in there and buy Sitka head to toe, a pair of crispi boots, a MR backpack and a pair of Swaros (and probably never actually see an elk either).

 

[tdhanses]

Done. Every state in the west has figured out how to limit NR to 10-15% but colorado. And let’s be honest, most NR buy some gas and that’s it. They don’t stay in hotels, they already have their gear, etc. it’s a tired argument made by nonresidents.

oh and the second part of my 2 part plan is to raise NR tags to 1000 like Montana and Wyoming. So don’t worry, you’ll still be paying your share.

I wouldn’t say most, I bet most sit at camp, drive around, drink beer and use it as a vacation to get away from family, they go into town and eat etc. Not everyone is a hardcore hunter backpacking in 50 miles.

I‘d say many small towns see a huge boost in rev come hunting season.

I laugh at my parents because they complain of how bad traffic gets in Pagosa come hunting season.

 

[Gerbdog]

Observational, but I do see a lot of NR hunters in town during all seasons, even during lunch hours of open seasons, but also at hotels, grocery stores (this one is huge, local groceries even sell dry ice), laundry mats etc. the local sporting good store is a Sitka, Mystery Ranch, Swaro, Heather’s Choice and Crispi dealer. Being a town of less than 20k, I doubt the resident population justifies stocking the minimum orders on any of those brands and there are guys who walk in there and buy Sitka head to toe, a pair of crispi boots, a MR backpack and a pair of Swaros (and probably never actually see an elk either).

Wish i could buy a pair of Swaros to never see elk with also. I just pop out the lens and start my fire with it in the sun or cook ants.

The mountain towns def survive off of the tourism, no doubt about that, the gear stores i see are all hunting + mountain biking, skiing, fishing, etc. to take advantage of the year round group of folks coming in. I think its great, and im glad they can keep their business running out in the mountains and i def drop into the fly shops for a few flies i dont need and intel. How much of that is hunting? No idea, im sure its a healthy % for sure, but im sure the lions share is just from socks and sandals in their RV spending 3 days in the CO mountain town before heading out to the next destination, no shame in it and im probably just jealous im not traveling full time in an RV!

Already losing sleep over next weeks opener so hopefully this was coherent

As to the topic: i think the herd is currently sustainable enough for OTC for awhile (S. CO may keep losing units off the OTC list) so long as folks take care of the woods / camping areas / back country. My significant other travels for her hobby / lifestyle and we have personally seen areas closed off to the public because people just cant manage to cleanup after themselves, "no more boondock camping for you!"

 

[Poser]

Wish i could buy a pair of Swaros to never see elk with also. I just pop out the lens and start my fire with it in the sun or cook ants.

The mountain towns def survive off of the tourism, no doubt about that, the gear stores i see are all hunting + mountain biking, skiing, fishing, etc. to take advantage of the year round group of folks coming in. I think its great, and im glad they can keep their business running out in the mountains and i def drop into the fly shops for a few flies i dont need and intel. How much of that is hunting? No idea, im sure its a healthy % for sure, but im sure the lions share is just from socks and sandals in their RV spending 3 days in the CO mountain town before heading out to the next destination, no shame in it and im probably just jealous im not traveling full time in an RV!

Already losing sleep over next weeks opener so hopefully this was coherent

As to the topic: i think the herd is currently sustainable enough for OTC for awhile (S. CO may keep losing units off the OTC list) so long as folks take care of the woods / camping areas / back country. My significant other travels for her hobby / lifestyle and we have personally seen areas closed off to the public because people just cant manage to cleanup after themselves, "no more boondock camping for you!"

I have a buddy who comes out every so often in the summers. He’s a taxidermist. I told him he should open a taxidermy shop on Main Street with no fixed pricing (just size up the customer for pricing), but taxidermy isn’t Even where he’d make his money. Have it a be a taxidermy themed bar and sell stupid, cheap t-shirts that read “I got mounted in Durango, CO” for $30 each.

 

[Gerbdog]

I have a buddy who comes out every so often in the summers. He’s a taxidermist. I told him he should open a taxidermy shop on Main Street with no fixed pricing (just size up the customer for pricing), but taxidermy isn’t Even where he’d make his money. Have it a be a taxidermy themed bar and sell stupid, cheap t-shirts that read “I got mounted in Durango, CO” for $30 each.

I'd drop in for the shirts and beer

 

[Jaquomo]

NR bull tag was approximately 50 bucks in 1980, average yearly inflation since then has been 2-3%. Overshooting at 250% over the past 40 years would put todays prices around 125 for a NR bull tag....so no, the prices are not basically the same as they were 30 years ago.

I may be off some in my quick math....someone correct me if I am wrong.

Sorry bud, but you're way off. A NR elk tag cost $50 in 1956. I have a copy of the regs in my hand. In today's dollars, that's $501. You can buy a NR cow elk and annual fishing license for $516. take out the fishing license cost ($100) and anyone can hunt CO elk for $416. or cheaper than in 1956.

 

[Jaquomo]

From the CPW website:

"Over the past 25 years, CPW has gradually increased the number of licenses sold. Substantial increases in fishing licenses offset the decrease in hunting and combination licenses (Figure 1). The revenue we have accrued from licenses sales has increased fairly dramatically, from about $45 million in 1990 to almost $70 million today (Figure 2). However, when adjusted for inflation, the real value of our license revenue has declined over time. $45 million in 1990 would have had the value of over $140 million today. The main reason for this decline is periodic resident price increases that fail to keep up with inflation. Non-resident prices were tied to the Consumer Price Index (CPI) for the Denver-Boulder-Greeley area and increase (or decrease) annually with inflation."

 

[trophyhill]

Does it need to go the way of the dodo? Yes otc hunting should be eliminated for a entire host of reasons..

Still laughable to me folks even mention point creep for elk when you can hunt every year and gain a point. Going to draw only, using your points on any elkand moving to a 80-20 split would be fair and basically eliminate point creep..

Raise the prices 3x for residents and non residents alike = a few might fall out but most folks are like me and will be more than happy to pay to play.

I’m not paying $2100 for an elk tag as a non res. I’d be one of the few dropping out. Land Owner tags don’t even cost that much......

 

[NateK]

This thread is a perfect example of why we need to be careful about asking non-hunter groups (i.e. hikers, bikers, etc.) to pay their fair share. Nonresidents have a solid leg to stand on in Colorado due to how much money they dump into the system no matter how much the residents complain about it. When a higher percentage of that budget is funded by non-hunters than hunters we will be screwed considering the way Colorado is headed. It's like the kids I grew up with who had daddy buy their truck, they could do whatever daddy said they could to their truck but since I bought mine I made the decisions.

I tend to promote making hunting and tags more available with options (draw units, landowner tags, private land hunts) for guys who want to hunt higher trophy quality animals. Spend the money on habitat etc. to increase carrying capacity to increase tags. I love the idea of hunting trophy class critters without other hunter pressure but there are just too many hunters and not enough habitat to have much access to that for guys who can't afford to hunt private.

 

[sndmn11]

Folks must be eating those gummies they picked up the last time they spent their $500 in a week visiting Colorado to hunt. Tourism YEAR ROUND funds the small towns that some in this thread think they are mega-funding. That idea is like claiming a concert at Red Rocks or Fiddler's carries the season....ummno

If you want to complain about the difference in between Res and Non-res license costs, move here. There are homes built everyday, and you can get your Next Door account set up in just a few minutes so you can complain on a local level. There are probably even jobs, and the smoke just up and disappeared a few days ago.

I also still invite you to come hunt elk, and pick up some bear tags, and list B tags, and maybe even some of those unlimited either sex list C elk tags with the four month season. Pretty sure there are unlimited long season either sex deer tags as well. However, your choice to live where you live should not mean that I have to pay more just because I live in the state that you choose to visit for a week, but find inadequate to reside in. The same attitude is held in my view on what other states choose to charge me to hunt there, because if it matter enough to me, I could surely move to whatever state I chose and solve that problem real quick.

 

[bkraushaar]

Sure seems like NR hunters are big business for both state wildlife departments (licenses/tags) and local businesses (hotels, t-shirts, bars, etc) these days. CO still seems somewhat reasonable with their tag prices (unlike what WY did with it's special draw).

 

[ElkArcher918]

I don't want to start a firestorm here (sure it will anyway), but as we lose habitat and Elk hunter numbers continue to increase, how much longer will Colorado be able to offer large swaths on its units as OTC rifle tags? These elk herds are amazingly resilient, and many somehow grow despite insane hunter pressure, harvest, tough winters, and natural predation. But on a decades-long timescale, are we just counting down slowly to all of these units eventually going to draw? Is this level of hunting sustainable in the long run? Will a day come when this old reliable option is no longer in the back (or front) pocket? Looking for informed answers based on conservation models etc.

I think CPW is gonna start by making all NR archery tags Draw. With population growth, habitat fragmentation, and high NR hunting pressure eventually CO will likely Cap the number of OTC rifle tags along with higher fees. Something's gotta give.