Calling Elk In Wolf Country!

[mwebs]

The wolves they "re introduced" are not the natural predator. They are a larger variety. The landscape has changed since the natural (smaller) wolves were here. We have built cities and highways that have taken up and block the natural habitat. I guess we should remove these things too if we are true outdoorsmen. I remember visiting Yellowstone in the past as an adult and as a child and remember seeing moose both times. I spent a week there last year searching for a moose to photograph. There are none! I asked the rangers and they admitted that there are none and suggested maybe in the South end of the Tetons. The only moose we found was outside of the park near a town where they could find a little respite from the wolves.
Bottom line is we either quit hunting and eating meat or we have to control the wolves.
I don't accept your definition of a true outdoorsman. I buy a wolf tag every year.

I spoke to two biologists that have studied moose in Yellowstone for years and they suggest the loss of willow habitat due to overgrazing by an unregulated elk population, prior to wolf introduction is to why moose are not as prevalent in Yellowstone. Yes take that with a grain of salt due to their profession but they have doctorates degrees and we are just guys that want something easy to blame. I spend a lot of time in Yellowstone fishing and see moose every visit. I don't disagree that it is a different type of wolf and yes obviously we have altered the habitat, I simply suggest that there needs to be room for both. If you hate the wolves for killing a few hundred elk every year, then how do you feel about the 25,000 elk hunters kill in Idaho every year? Now that the elk population in Yellowstone has plummeted due to wolf re-introduction there is a lot more suitable habitat for moose so pick your poison there.. I just feel like being a responsible hunter and outdoorsman requires respect for all animals and I wish to hunt in the most natural environment possible, one that includes other natural predators. I happily purchase my wolf tag every year and hopefully one of these falls I can take one, but there is no need to wipe them off the landscape again is all I am suggesting. I think your point of cities and highways has a bigger impact than any wolf pack, ranchers complaining about nuisance elk on their property, which is there winter range, but then they want plentiful herds to hunt come next fall.. Managing the wolf population works for elk herds, as a few Idaho zones have shown over the past couple years. Hunters just need to adapt to having wolves in the picture is all.

 

[5MilesBack]

I'll give up elk hunting altogether before I change my techniques and strategies. I don't have to hunt elk. I hunt elk because of how much fun it is the way I hunt them. Take that away........and elk hunting is pretty darn boring IMO. So if wolves became the new norm, and elk went silent permanently........I'm out.

 

[SoDaky]

^^^^^
This.

 

[GregB]

I spoke to two biologists that have studied moose in Yellowstone for years and they suggest the loss of willow habitat due to overgrazing by an unregulated elk population, prior to wolf introduction is to why moose are not as prevalent in Yellowstone. Yes take that with a grain of salt due to their profession but they have doctorates degrees and we are just guys that want something easy to blame. I spend a lot of time in Yellowstone fishing and see moose every visit. I don't disagree that it is a different type of wolf and yes obviously we have altered the habitat, I simply suggest that there needs to be room for both. If you hate the wolves for killing a few hundred elk every year, then how do you feel about the 25,000 elk hunters kill in Idaho every year? Now that the elk population in Yellowstone has plummeted due to wolf re-introduction there is a lot more suitable habitat for moose so pick your poison there.. I just feel like being a responsible hunter and outdoorsman requires respect for all animals and I wish to hunt in the most natural environment possible, one that includes other natural predators. I happily purchase my wolf tag every year and hopefully one of these falls I can take one, but there is no need to wipe them off the landscape again is all I am suggesting. I think your point of cities and highways has a bigger impact than any wolf pack, ranchers complaining about nuisance elk on their property, which is there winter range, but then they want plentiful herds to hunt come next fall.. Managing the wolf population works for elk herds, as a few Idaho zones have shown over the past couple years. Hunters just need to adapt to having wolves in the picture is all.

Hunters in Idaho don't kill 25,000 elk per year. Last year there were 21,371 elk harvested. The 10 year average is 18,865 elk per year.

 

[Rckymtnshooter]

My son and I had a bull bugling good late one evening. He was too far away to get to before dark. We were back at daylight the next morning and didn't hear a peep.

I continued to walk up the drainage where the bulls had been last night. I ended up hearing an elk sound and moved towards it. Got right on top of this bull and he was vocalizing really well but was just being very low volume in everything he said. At one point he made a full multi note bugle but did it at a whisper volume. Ended up having him come right in but passed him up at 3 yards.

That bull obviously wanted to play but was concerned about something. Only bull I've ever had do the whisper volume thing. This was in the heart of wolf and grizzly country in northwest Montana.

 

[87TT]

Sorry for the hijack Paul.
Those biologists in Yellowstone only say what they are told to say or what is PC. If you talk to the people who work there and have for years, they tell a different story. The wolves were supposed to keep the bison in check but have found it easier to target the moose and elk. They say there is only maybe one pack that takes bison regularly.
Where I live they just made wolf season year round on private land. Why would they do that if it wasn't a problem?

 

[GregB]

I had another thought regarding my initial post in this thread. It was relatively early in the season (September 12th) when I shot him. I don't know of this was a contributing factor in the elk being silent or not. Based on that experience I won't change how I call this season. It is disappointing to find elk and not hear a single bugle though.

 

[Okhotnik]

Every state that has a manageable wolf population has a control program in place. Your statement is literally wrong.

False

Oregon and Washington don’t

And I should add that Minnesota Wisconsin and Michigan don’t either. All attempts to manage the over population of wolves was shut down but the anti hunting environmental groups by filing endless frivolous lawsuits .

I don’t know where you are getting your information from but it sure isn’t accurate.

 

[Ross]

Here is the problem a large pack predator is brought in they hunt and kill for sport and in remote areas they are not huntable much of the year due to accessibility. They have gotten out of control in many places and simply have a field day when the snow gets deep running elk down to remote bottoms where the elk flounder in deep snow. When I get them on my backcountry cams even the look is defiant I got them on camera. This cam took a two hr ride in on tracks and two hr hike in on snowshoes let’s just say nobody gets to hunt them come December and then season ends in March. To manage them we need to treat them like coyotes.

 

[3pointer]

Sorry Paul, off track again but Idk how many people here rely on store bought meat , honestly I don’t have a piece in my freezer, however I do rely on my seasonal harvest , like a lot of people on here I’m sure , so simply it’s us or the wolves , back on track I know people who’ve hunted elk in Idaho they’re whole life and wouldn’t make up the fact that wolves have ruined quality of calling and working elk and elk herds period since the reintroduction,

 

[ElkNut1]

87TT, 3pointer, no worries sir! Heck, I'm being entertained here for the most part! I don't care for the wolves here either but they are but a small part of the equation. There's no way I would allow them the to get in the way of my passion for elk hunting. I deal with them like everyone else. My tactics & strategies don't change at all in wolf country or not in wolf country. There are days elk are quiet in Sept. no matter the state & units it has little to do with wolves present. Sure a pack of howlers can temporarily quiet a vocal bull down & move them out but it's short lived. One thing I refuse to do is become emotional about their existence. They're here, things are being done now to reduce them & life goes on. It's all good! (grin)

ElkNut/Paul

 

[87TT]

I'm with you Paul. No way have I slowed down my hunting and will learn to deal with them more. I only really started hunting them three years ago. I was so looking forward to calling them and hearing them. I hunted hard for about two weeks before I finally heard a bugle. I had talked to many people around here that have lived here their whole lives. They all said the elk just weren't talking like they used to. I suppose some of it was more people hunting but the consensus was that the elk were quieter since the wolves moved in. This is hay farm and ranch country along with logging. The people I talked to were lifelong residents that make their living outdoors and see first hand the changes. I found a bull last year that pretty sure was killed by wolves. The sign around it was real clear. I have been noticing that the volume of the elk has gotten real low too. When I first heard it, I thought it was another hunter trying to locate elk without attracting other hunters. I think it was a bull trying not to attract the wolves.
Once again, thanks for your help Paul. I have learned a large part of what I know about elk from you and your app.

 

[TheTone]

Hasn't changed my hunting style a bit. I've switched units a few times, but that was more due to myself moving or chasing population numbers. The unit I'm currently hunting has an elk population that's much more effected by farmers hating elk than wolf predation. I've called in one wolf back in 2003 or 2004, really wish the season was open then but oh well.

 

[3pointer]

I like your positive attitude Paul, that’s the only way to be , sometimes venting about predators is contagious. On another note , I hear people say the wolves will run elk out of the unit , will they completely leave , or eventually double back because they’re obviously in the area for a reason ( feed cover etc)

 

[Beendare]

Yeah, apologies Paul...If you ever figure out how to call elk that have just scattered from a pack of wolves....make me your first phone call /Grin

..... You don't have to agree but it is a FACT that for 1000s of years elk lived with wolves and were just fine. Now that humans are killing them to it now becomes a problem? Just because it makes them harder to hunt doesn't mean the wolves are ruing elk hunting, I guess some people are to used to hunting dumb elk that forgot about wolves when we removed their natural predator. Obviously they are having a negative impact on elk populations and behavior, but so are all the hunters chasing them/ killing them every fall. ...........

OK Webs......some of this we will have to agree to disagree.

I don't profess to be "The end all opinion" on this wolf thing, I understand there are many factors. It sounds like we both might agree on one thing; This wolf reintroduction was handled poorly.

Sure wolves and elk lived together before man....but man is here...and we are the apex predator as you stated....a critical factor that many casually disregard.

I come at this from the perspective of managing our environment for humans.....a limited amount of wolves is acceptable to me. When Wolves are expanding exponentially without any control as was the case a few years ago...that is a travesty.

 

[mwebs]

Yeah, apologies Paul...If you ever figure out how to call elk that have just scattered from a pack of wolves....make me your first phone call /Grin



OK Webs......some of this we will have to agree to disagree.

I don't profess to be "The end all opinion" on this wolf thing, I understand there are many factors. It sounds like we both might agree on one thing; This wolf reintroduction was handled poorly.

Sure wolves and elk lived together before man....but man is here...and we are the apex predator as you stated....a critical factor that many casually disregard.

I come at this from the perspective of managing our environment for humans.....a limited amount of wolves is acceptable to me. When Wolves are expanding exponentially without any control as was the case a few years ago...that is a travesty.

Agreed, and thanks for the civil conversation, I just try and have an inclusive perspective on things. As western hunters 95% of us despise wolves and won't even listen to the other side of the equation and where I live there are only two sides pro and anti-wolf, it is exhausting in conversations, so I try to bridge the gap. I think there is a good middle ground where wolves are managed and were all happy (besides when they blow out the basin your hunting ). The only time I change the way I am calling is if I have witnessed other elk doing the same and assume/ know wolves are around. Seems silly to be the only bull screaming his head off when others are making more subtle noises.

 

[ElkNut1]

87TT, Thank You! Please understand these are the same things heard where I elk hunt by the vast majority of hunters who have been born & raised here. They remember when finding & killing elk was much easier, they want it to stay that way. So it's not just wolves, lions & bears, but heavier hunting pressure in many areas has sky rocketed, this is a huge factor to be considered in the scheme of things. It's up to us as hunters to take ourselves to the next level if we are going to be consistently successful in our elk hunts. I see hunting pressure & the wolf issue equally responsible. Not a big deal though. If we focus our energies in a positive way we can overcome any obstacles that we may be faced with.

3pointer, I'm sure anything is possible especially if you're hunting the borders of units. But from my experience (been here ever since the wolf intro) no sir, elk generally do not go very far. Sometimes they just get out of earshot of the howlers & sometimes they'll move a drainage or two to escape. I hunt a lot of areas, all have wolves, I can factually say the elk are generally within 45 minutes of relocating them again. The elk can turn quiet as they vacate but I've also heard elk bugling as they vacate, why? So others around them are given a direction as to their new direction of travel. All depends on the situation!

As far as elk communication heard at lower volumes, they've always done this. They are just like us when communicating. If we are 10' apart we adjust out tone to be heard to the recipient. If the recipient is 60 yards away we raise our voices to be heard at that distant. Tone & intensity of our speech can change as with elk if an issue arises & emotions enter the equation no matter the distance involved! -- We are not always Yelling or Screaming at someone & neither are Bulls! Lots of hunting pressure where elk are being called to repeatedly & busted by us humans can discipline elk real quick thus they can become suspicious to certain predictable calling.

Bruce, when elk are blown out of an area by wolves they do this for a single reason, they're avoiding a Threat! The hardest part is relocating this group especially when hunting dark timber which I enjoy most! Elk will vacate an area just as quick if they were exiting because of human interference, it's not just because of a specific predator, both of us mean them harm! It's much easier to recall elk that were busted out by wolves that to recall busted elk that were running from us! Think about it!

ElkNut/Paul

 

[elkguide]

While elk behavior seems to changed since the wolves were introduced, many say that it is just part of the natural way and things are going back where they were. From my understanding, elk were/are a plains animal and human pressure put them into the mountains where they thrived.

I find that the numbers of elk are considerably lower in areas that I hunt that have very little human influence. I also find it interesting that even with the extreme pressure that I have seen in Colorado and New Mexico, elk still talk in their loud voices????

 

[ElkNut1]

No doubt elk numbers have been reduced by the injection of wolves but I don't see any real difference in their volume of vocalization. Again, bulls bugle according to the situation they are in, some require more volume than others. For instance, when a bull is talking too his cows in a conversational manner he does not use the same intensity or abrasive bugle as he would when faced with a bull trying to steal a cow or calling his cow/cows from him.

Yes, elk still talk in their loud voices regardless of wolves in a unit or not! When hot cows are present it would take an act of God to totally shut them up, wolves or hunters can only accomplish this very short term. The opposite is also true, no hot cows regardless of area hunted & you will find bulls are much quieter, hot cows present arouses a bulls Instinct to Breed & bugling can become competitive among multiple bulls present! I'm referring to OTC or Draw units, it doesn't matter.

I'm referring to hunting elk over 40 years in the same areas prior to the wolf introduction & to present day. I've also hunted other states with & without wolves & see little difference in vocalization. The biggest factor is lots of bulls & you have potentially more bugling, fewer bulls & you can experience less bugling. Fortunately we do not need bulls bugling repeatedly in order to call them in.

ElkNut/Paul

 

[Idahohillboy]

Great post Paul. The whole wolf debate is silly yes they suck in your hunting area n sometimes run the heard out. Not sure what type of wolf used to be in the lower 48 but really don't care. I would rather 100% have the wolves than the droves of road bugeling novice out of staters lol. At least you can shoot at wolves. Wolves and grizzlies and critters make western hunting fun and scary. If I wanted a whitetail experience on some tame farm I would hunt the south.

I have seen elk go dark n dead silent mid rut w wolves and have seen them actually be very vocal like last year when a wolf was howling at 6:30 am and then a big bull was buguling at 7:30 am same ridge. I thought my hunt was done. Pics attached of the bull. I think it depends on if its a pack or lone wolf maybe idk.. the wolf track attached was a dif day.

Elk in my units are just less vocal I think due to heavy traffic and calling everywhere more so than wolves. Finding it harder to get away from the crowds and the elk being way more catious.

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