California: where are the BT and muleys?

[MattB]

@MotoHunter39 @Lou (Louis) It's a trick question, those three pictures were taken within 1/4 of one another. The first and third buck are resident deer and the middle one migrated in after the Bear fire. -- These are all D zone bucks in what most here are claiming is mule deer-only territory.

I believe you are misinterpreting what the boundaries delineate. It isn't that any buck east of the BT/MD dividing line is definitively a mule deer, but rather that there is a reasonable likelihood that a deer taken east of that line is not pure blacktail (the smaller of the two species) and hence won't be considered as one (absent DNA evidence).

From the B&C website:

"As a general rule, the categories are set so there is virtually no chance of a larger category specimen (or a hybrid animal) being taken within the boundary for the smaller category. While this may exclude some deserving specimens of the smaller category that reside in the larger category’s range, it is a price that must be paid to keep the smaller categories pure."

Edit: With that, it makes good sense that you can find some deer that look like BT and some that look like MD in areas of the Sierra foothills. I have acquaintances who have killed some bomber bucks in the foothills east of Sac and have shown off the tails of some that look like blacktails. I have also seen deer pics from guys who have hunted with them of deer that clearly had a big MD influence (tails were predominantly white with black tips). One deer that was killed in that area that looked like a BT was found to be 40% MD based on DNA testing.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

There are so many hybrids, crosses, and recognized sub species of both in random pockets of California; trying to put designated “areas” to it is almost impossible. The color map posted on the first page is closest there is to an accurate “zone map” for this overly debated topic here in Northern California.

 

[HappyHuntr]

@MotoHunter39 @Lou (Louis) It's a trick question, those three pictures were taken within 1/4 of one another. The first and third buck are resident deer and the middle one migrated in after the Bear fire. -- These are all D zone bucks in what most here are claiming is mule deer-only territory.

Wow thank you

 

[Azone]

Black tail, muley, hybrid or confused?

 

[Banded_spooney]

I believe you are misinterpreting what the boundaries delineate. It isn't that any buck east of the BT/MD dividing line is definitively a mule deer, but rather that there is a reasonable likelihood that a deer taken east of that line is not pure blacktail (the smaller of the two species) and hence won't be considered as one (absent DNA evidence).

From the B&C website:

"As a general rule, the categories are set so there is virtually no chance of a larger category specimen (or a hybrid animal) being taken within the boundary for the smaller category. While this may exclude some deserving specimens of the smaller category that reside in the larger category’s range, it is a price that must be paid to keep the smaller categories pure."

Edit: With that, it makes good sense that you can find some deer that look like BT and some that look like MD in areas of the Sierra foothills. I have acquaintances who have killed some bomber bucks in the foothills east of Sac and have shown off the tails of some that look like blacktails. I have also seen deer pics from guys who have hunted with them of deer that clearly had a big MD influence (tails were predominantly white with black tips). One deer that was killed in that area that looked like a BT was found to be 40% MD based on DNA testing.

I’m not misinterpreting the map. I’m responding to a poll question. The question in the poll is binary. And my point is the answer to the poll question is unequivocally false. Your post actually supports my point.

Blacktail, do in fact exist in the state of California away from the coast even if they are subject to hybridization which more often than not bastardized their pure bloodline.

The above is not debatable. The below clearly is.

My educated guess is that most (see screen shots from fish and wildlife) of the bucks in western sierra foothills carry more blacktail mtDNA than mule deer mtDNA. That statement goes double for Sacramento River bucks. If you told me a buck is 25% mule deer and therefore doesn’t qualify as a book blacktail, I will understand and support why it doesn’t qualify but I’ll still call it a blacktail rather than a mule deer.

No buck has a 100% pure bloodline. Meaning a p value of 1. BC says if the p value is > .9 they will call it a blacktail for the book. My standards (and clearly those of DFW) are a little more relaxed.

 

[MattB]

I’m not misinterpreting the map. I’m responding to a poll question. The question in the poll is binary. And my point is the answer to the poll question is unequivocally false. Your post actually supports my point.

The poll question was based on a strict and IMO errant interpretation of a map. And the poll's binary nature ignores the reality that there is a high degree of hybridization between BT and MD in areas of CA. As a result, there are areas on the map that reflect MD but would more correctly interpreted as "not BT".

 

[Lou (Louis)]

A more detailed map.

Used for purposes of record keeping by B&C, which is good enough for me.
Seems to me that we can, for record keeping purposes, choose to call all deer in California
1. “Deer”, which seems unsatisfactory, at least to me or
2. Based on a general boundaries classification for official records (and then choose to further classify, if a particular hunter wishes to do so).This makes B&C records/scoring easier.
We do this, or just throw record keeping out the window in California and heck, all states where both species exist. Arbitrary? Probably (I knew a good friend who lost a potential B&C buck because of where he shot it).

I have killed both. Sometimes in the same area. Hybrids? Maybe.
In the end, I don’t eat the classification, but I do remember the individual bucks as BT’s or as muleys. Definitely a measurable size/weight difference.

To sum up: to each his own. We have to have a defined yardstick. I choose B&C.

 

[huntnful]

Blacktail/Hybrids are all over the place. I don't know anyone that hunts the Eastern mountains and tries to consider them full blacktails though. I don't care really, but they are harder to hunt. They like the thick $hit.

10,000' elevation.

 

[Hackleback]

Plenty of deer in the eastern Sierras all the way into Nevada that have at least some BT features. I’ve seen deer in the foothills (Auburn/Foresthill area) that look like full BT. I’ve also seen more than a few pictures of BT with huge racks and ears that make one wonder.

 

[Lou (Louis)]

Blacktail/Hybrids are all over the place. I don't know anyone that hunts the Eastern mountains and tries to consider them full blacktails though. I don't care really, but they are harder to hunt. They like the thick $hit.

10,000' elevation.
View attachment 542978

Wow! That's a monster!
Illustrates the BT are brown, muleys are gray thing.

 

[bigmoose]

Here are four bucks from D5 in the California foothills. These bucks all wintered within a mile of each other. One looks like a old blacktail and one looks like a old mule deer. The other two are somewhere in between.

 

[Lou (Louis)]

Here are four bucks from D5 in the California foothills. These bucks all wintered within a mile of each other. One looks like a old blacktail and one looks like a old mule deer. The other two are somewhere in between.

View attachment 544564View attachment 544565View attachment 544566View attachment 544567

Top 2 BT
#3 Muley (note the handlebar mustache)
#4 Mainly muley

Great pics! Thanks for sharing.

 

[bigmoose]

To me, the third photo down on my previous post is of a blacktail and of course the lower photo being a mulie. If you look at the face on the 3rd photo you'll notice the small ears and dainty face features including the dark stripe down the center of the nose. Plus, he has a smaller body size. I doubt his antlers would go much over 20 inches.

Here's a blacktail from Bodega Bay for comparison. Nice double throat patch also.

 

[MattB]

Here are four bucks from D5 in the California foothills. These bucks all wintered within a mile of each other. One looks like a old blacktail and one looks like a old mule deer. The other two are somewhere in between.

View attachment 544564View attachment 544565View attachment 544566View attachment 544567

In comparison to the coloration of the bucks where I hunt, those bucks all look like they have varying degrees of mule deer in them. Too much white on their tails and butts, and/or the tails narrow toward the top.

 

[bigmoose]

In comparison to the coloration of the bucks where I hunt, those bucks all look like they have varying degrees of mule deer in them. Too much white on their tails and butts, and/or the tails narrow toward the top.

I would agree with you. It's just that some of them lean one way or another with their genetics. They've been cross breeding for so long, it's hard to call them one way or another. I agree with the B&C map of distinction for California.

 

[MattB]

Here are a couple of pics of tails on some deer from Mendocino County. From behind you see very little white. Some do have more brown than black toward the top of the tails.

 

[Cahunter805]

Here are four bucks from D5 in the California foothills. These bucks all wintered within a mile of each other. One looks like a old blacktail and one looks like a old mule deer. The other two are somewhere in between.

View attachment 544564View attachment 544565View attachment 544566View attachment 544567

That 3rd buck is awesome!! Incredible deer and beautiful cape.

 

[2-Stix]

I disagree. I have only shot blacktail in southern Oregon and North of Goleta in So Cal way below the maps area for Coastal Blacktail, at the way bottom of A Zone South. The tails are very different, but the racks and bodies are the same and you can not tell the difference. I have seen countless Mulies up the 395 (zones D6-11 & 13, x8-10), camping, hiking, backpacking, climbing and dirtbiking in the East side of High Sierra the last 40 years. They are very different and dont line up to the maps linked in this thread. Left tail is Oregon, right is CA. Left buck is CA, right is Oregon. I guess these are hybrids down here on the So Cal coast, that is what I have heard. My family has shot some monsters West of the 5 in southern oregon that look like big mulies. Also I have witnessed the brown and gray ones in Oregon. I think they must be hybrids in down south here.

 

[Lou (Louis)]

I disagree. I have only shot blacktail in southern oregon and north of Goleta in So Cal way below the maps area for coastal blacktail. At the way bottom of A zone South. The tails are very different, but the racks and bodies the same and you can not tell the difference. I have seen countless Mulies up the 395 (zones D6-11 & 13, x8-10), camping, hiking, backpacking, climbing and dirtbiking in the East side of Nigh Sierra the last 40 years. They are very different and dont line up to the maps linked in this thread. Left tail is Oregon, right is CA. Left buck is CA, right is Oregon. I guess these are hybrids down here on the so cal coast. Any my family has shot some monsters in west of the 5 in southern oregon that look like big mulies.

Fair enough.
As a reminder, this is B&C’s map…

 

[eLightfoot]

There are some big grey bodies in high elevation bzone. So not all blacktails are brown. I’ve seen grey ghost, reddish brown, dark brown, and chocolate brown bucks all in the same mile and elevation. Also mature B&C class bucks from 140lb to 200lb in the same area. The genetics are super variable