Bump to 300 spine?

[Jermh]

To start, I am still fairly new to recurves after 15 or so years with a compound and love it so far. Feeling confident to 25 most days and some days 30 with fletched shafts.
I'm trying to get an arrow set up for this fall and looking for a little guidance.
19" TBow riser, 45 lb Uukha med limbs, 30.5" draw shooting off a Centerest flipper.
Currently shooting Axis 340's cut to 30.75" with a 75 gr brass insert and 125gr tip. 4 AAE hybrid 26 vanes. I could not get 400's to bareshaft without either being shorter than I want or lighter up front than I wanted. I am running into the same issue with the 340's but it just really seems like they should be plenty stiff. Bareshafts hitting to the right of fletched shafts ~6-8" at 20 yards consistent. If I need to bump to a 300 spine I will but looking for guidance/opinions from people that have been doing this longer than me before dropping more arrow money. Thoughts?

 

[dlee56]

I’d bump it to 300. Sounds like the 340s have you back against the wall tuning wise. the 300s will give you more flexibility to mess with length and point weight to get a good combo that shoots straight

 

[Jermh]

That definitely makes sense in my head it just seems like that's much stiffer than what a lot of guys are shooting, but again I'm new to the trad world so just making sure I'm in the right zip code.
That said, I likely won't be able to shoot a 300 axis as it will put me heavier than I'm wanting I think. Possibly a Rampage? Depending on how it tunes out I think they could get me right around 550 finished weight which is where I'm wanting to end up I think

 

[Beendare]

Same DL here...and I shoot 2 recurves with the Uukha Vx and Gobi limbs 46#, and Nika's at a little higher poundage, 53#.

As you know, those Uukha limbs are very efficient as are the Nika's.

I shoot a 31 3/8" 350 spine Accmos arrow in my 53# with Nika limbs, 437g TAW, std insert with 125g BH and it shoots the most perfect arrow you have ever seen. I played with 3 different arrow spines in that, 400's, 350's and 300's- all shot well. The 300 had too much arc- big gaps at 20/25y...the 400 was only 380g and was a bullet but I wanted to be close to 9 GPP.

My 46# likes a 400 or 350. I like the 400's best.
The 400's; 1) Centershots 31", 50g insert, 75g head [I already had installed the inserts or I never would have done this] or
2) Accmos 400, 31 1/2", std insert, 100g head.

If you insist on going down the high FOC rabbit hole you will probably need 300's.

I can tell you this....the claims of that high FOC are silly. You will miss more critters with that setup.

Slap a 2 blade on there- Awesome penetration with those even with a 400g arrow- and shoot an arrow with good trajectory.

I killed about 13 critters in a 2 year time frame with that 46# bow- including Moose....that 2 blade turns any arrow into a penetrating monster.

Just saying...the arrow with the better trajectory will be more accurate in hunting scenarios and if you are blowing through critters- what not?

Ask yourself:
How many pro 3D guys shoot very heavy high FOC arrows? The answer- exactly none. Accuracy and shot locations matter in a hunting scenario

 

[bisblue]

Sounds like you might need 300s. 10-12 grains per pound and 15-18% FOC are used as good middle of the road guides by folks like Aron Snyder and Cody Greenwood for efficiency and ease of tuning.

 

[Jermh]

Same DL here...and I shoot 2 recurves with the Uukha Vx and Gobi limbs 46#, and Nika's at a little higher poundage, 53#.

As you know, those Uukha limbs are very efficient as are the Nika's.

I shoot a 31 3/8" 350 spine Accmos arrow in my 53# with Nika limbs, 437g TAW, std insert with 125g BH and it shoots the most perfect arrow you have ever seen. I played with 3 different arrow spines in that, 400's, 350's and 300's- all shot well. The 300 had too much arc- big gaps at 20/25y...the 400 was only 380g and was a bullet but I wanted a little bit more weight.
My 46# likes a 400 or 350. I like the 400's best.
The 400's; 1) Centershots 31", 50g insert, 75g head [I already had installed the inserts or I never would have done this] or
2) Accmos 400, 31 1/2", std insert, 100g head.

If you insist on going down the high FOC rabbit hole you will probably need 300's.

I can tell you this....the claims of that high FOC are silly. You will miss more critters with that setup. Slap a 2 blade on there and shoot an arrow with good trajectory.

I killed about 13 critters in a 2 year time frame with that 46# bow- including Moose....that 2 blade turns any arrow into a penetrating monster. Just saying...the arrow with the better trajectory will be more accurate in hunting scenarios and if you are blowing through critters- what not?

Ask yourself:
How many pro 3D guys shoot very heavy high FOC arrows? The answer- exactly none.

This is very helpful and aligns with what I am seeing. To shoot 400's I would need to be very light. I can get 340's to bareshaft but I end up south of 480 grains. Have not shot through a chrono so no clue on speed. I'm sure this would be plenty for whitetail here at home but I'd like to use this for elk as well and I would really like to shoot a 3 blade just because that's what I've shot out of my compound and I'm comfortable with the carnage I know they make. No desire for extreme FOC just would like to get somewhere around 550 grains. I also am shooting a 25 yd fixed crawl.

 

[Jermh]

Recommendations on a 300 spine somewhere in the 8-9 gpi range? Think I could likely get them to around 550 at that weight. Would prefer a .204. Rampage? Something else?

 

[dlee56]

That definitely makes sense in my head it just seems like that's much stiffer than what a lot of guys are shooting, but again I'm new to the trad world so just making sure I'm in the right zip code.
That said, I likely won't be able to shoot a 300 axis as it will put me heavier than I'm wanting I think. Possibly a Rampage? Depending on how it tunes out I think they could get me right around 550 finished weight which is where I'm wanting to end up I think

It doesn’t matter what others are doing or shooting. It matters if you can tune your arrow, just the physics of the stiff/weak relationship and all the ways you can manipulate it.

I’ve shot rampages for years and loved them. I like the renegades too.

 

[Justin.Medcalf]

Are you 100% sure ur release is good and you’re not torquing your bow? I shoot a similar setup. Satori riser with Selenga limbs. 48lbs at 29 off the shelf or a springy and I shoot 340 axis footed with a total of 250 up front. Tuning is very personal but I think the 340 would work based off your numbers alone. Stiff arrows can give a false positive and look weak.

 

[Jermh]

Are you 100% sure ur release is good and you’re not torquing your bow? I shoot a similar setup. Satori riser with Selenga limbs. 48lbs at 29 off the shelf or a springy and I shoot 340 axis footed with a total of 250 up front. Tuning is very personal but I think the 340 would work based off your numbers alone. Stiff arrows can give a false positive and look weak.

I'm not ruling out the possibility that it is me. To me my release looks good when I review video. The other day I put a blob of white paint on the rest and shot bareshafts to see if the tail of the shaft contacted on its way out. Very light contact mid-shaft, no vane contact. Shooting this morning early before work like normal I dropped point weight ~85 gr in one bare shaft and shot it several times. The drop in weight moved it left like it should.

I'm going to order some 300 Rampages. Hopefully I can keep them full length with around 200 up front. I'll update when they get here and I get them set up. Plan to use the brass HIT inserts from Easton since I already have them

 

[dan33]

There's some black magic and lies going on with arrows for a stickbow. I suffer from a severe LOFT at times but I can get just consistent enough to get consistent results. I'm shooting a 55 pound bow at a shave over 28 inches. My arrow is a 350 spine rampage with the aluminum post stainless sleeve ethics system with a 250 gr point. I'm right around 30 inches total arrow length. (638GR TAW) with less point weight you should be able to get them to the length you want them at. Have you tried nock tuning your bare shafts?

 

[Beendare]

This is very helpful and aligns with what I am seeing. To shoot 400's I would need to be very light. I can get 340's to bareshaft but I end up south of 480 grains. Have not shot through a chrono so no clue on speed. I'm sure this would be plenty for whitetail here at home but I'd like to use this for elk as well and I would really like to shoot a 3 blade just because that's what I've shot out of my compound and I'm comfortable with the carnage I know they make. No desire for extreme FOC just would like to get somewhere around 550 grains. I also am shooting a 25 yd fixed crawl.

To each his own, just giving you my experience.

I took the time to bareshft 3 different arrows in my 53# recurve- and shot those arrows for groups over a couple weeks. It was an eye opener.

I had been an 11-12gpp guy for many years. That 9gpp arrow was consistently more accurate.
The whole penetration thing is easily solved with a very efficient 2 or 3 blade tapered cut on contact BH…they penetrate effortlessly, so no worries there…it came down to that one shot accuracy for me.

If you are only shooting short 15- 20y slot distance shots, then more arrow weight is less of a factor. If you shoot various distances as I do, trajectory matters.
.

 

[Trumpkin The Dwarf]

Lots of black magic goes into tuning a trad bow. I shoot a true 33" draw... 52 lbs @33, with a cut to center 3 piece longbow. And I have to shoot 34" 500 spine .246 diameter arrows with 175 grs of point weight... Used to be I was shooting 340's, then it turned into 400's and now 500's as my form has gotten better and my release cleaner.

At the end of the day, you gotta go with what the bareshafts and broadheads tell you. I agree with @Beendare about accuracy over GPP/FOC. But at the end of the day, tune is king.

 

[Jermh]

300 spine Rampaged are on the way from Lancaster. I'm going to drop point weight in the 340's and get the 300's dialed in and just shoot both for a while and see what I like and makes sense to me. I'm going to update this thread once I figure out what works to get the 300's to bareshaft. Appreciate the input from everyone

 

[ozyclint]

So if everyone shoots 340's, 300's for sub 55# bows with sub 200gr points then there isn't an arrow made that will work for someone shooting 70# with 250gr+ upfront.
I honestly don't know how everyone shoots such stiff arrows.
I use axis 5mm 400's with 300gr total upfront with a border Black Douglas recurve that is 58#@28" with 28" draw.

340's with same bow with 70# limbs and 350gr upfront.

 

[dan33]

So if everyone shoots 340's, 300's for sub 55# bows with sub 200gr points then there isn't an arrow made that will work for someone shooting 70# with 250gr+ upfront.
I honestly don't know how everyone shoots such stiff arrows.
I use axis 5mm 400's with 300gr total upfront with a border Black Douglas recurve that is 58#@28" with 28" draw.

340's with same bow with 70# limbs and 350gr upfront.

Right. I've got a 45# ben pearson that couldn't shoot 400s with 325 to 375 up front

 

[Jermh]

So if everyone shoots 340's, 300's for sub 55# bows with sub 200gr points then there isn't an arrow made that will work for someone shooting 70# with 250gr+ upfront.
I honestly don't know how everyone shoots such stiff arrows.
I use axis 5mm 400's with 300gr total upfront with a border Black Douglas recurve that is 58#@28" with 28" draw.

340's with same bow with 70# limbs and 350gr upfront.

That is why I am asking the question. I am just moving in the direction that the bareshafts are telling me to go. We have a 2.5" difference in draw length which has to matter. Also, how short are you cutting the 400's? Are you shooting off the shelf or an elevated rest? That could be a factor as well I would think.

 

[Wrench]

I'd be having someone slowmo video the shot process.

I'm shooting a set of uukha's fast limbs drawing #62 and shooting 340's with more weight than you.

When you get to super stiff arrows form issues become amplified. Spring rests help mask the form issues.

 

[dlee56]

Everyone makes it so complicated. If you’re hunting this year it’s probably best to get an arrow tuned and a dozen built. If right now you’re out of tune CONSISTENTLY then make the proper adjustments and run with it. Unless you plan on totally reworking your form, becoming well practiced with it, then going through a full tuning process, finding a build that tunes out, and then practicing with that build long enough to be confident; all within the next 3 months, then go for it.
Personally, if your shooting bare shafts consistently 6-8” right then that’s enough evidence for me to use to make adjustments, get your arrow more in tune, then practice your butt off for the rest of the year and go shoot something.

 

[Beendare]

The big variation in arrow spine with the guys above makes sense when you realize that it depends a lot on how far past center your bow window is cut.

I have never seen a longbow that will shoot a 300 spine…those need the weak spine to bend around the riser.

Example; My ILF risers are cut way past center and they tune better with heavier arrow spine. When I was shooting a Toelke custom, I had to drop 2 spine sizes to get it to tune.

.