Bullet Choice (S2H podcast ep35)

[Beetroot]

Just listened to the podcast “Bullet Ballistics: A hunters guide”, seems like something funny is happening in the background as it got recast on my app and doesn’t appear in the previous episodes.

Anyway, basic premise of the discussion is that heavy for calibre match bullets (ELD-M, TMK, Bergeron, etc) are the best option for game. Which is a pretty simple recommendation, but I’m left with a few questions.

1, What’s the important part, the heavy for calibre part or subsequent lower velocity?
-Example given was a 100gr 6.5mm ELD-M at 3500fps is bad, 147gr ELD-M at 2800fps is good.
I assume this is because of the very fast velocity leading to bullets “blowing up” at close distance.

2, There’s was also a lot of talk of velocity ranges given for non match bullets (bonded, monos etc), is there a velocity range you need to stick to with match bullets?
-For a 223 would 88gr ELD-Ms be too slow, or would 73gr ELD-Ms in a 22 Creed be too fast?
-What about a 300blk or short barrel 308? Would you be better to for for a 200gr+ ELD-M or a 125gr TMK?

3, What do you do if you can’t use heavy match bullets?
-A lever action requires non pointed bullets, so for a 30-30 what would be the best option?
Many older cartridges, pistol calibres, lever action cartridges aren’t capable of the break neck speeds, so would you be better off with a 150gr bullet at 2500fps or a 180gr at 2200fps?

4, if you just hunt close range are the heavy match bullets still best?
-If I’m hunting 100yards and in 100% of the time, what is the best option? Ties in with the above question as there are many states where you need to use pistol cartridges, or for close distance hunting might it be better to just go for a very big/heavy bullet (35cal, 44cal, 45cal, etc).

 

[Macintosh]

IMO with more or less all necked centerfire rifle cartridges this is all more or less irrelevant inside 200 yards. This is largely for the 400-1000+ yard crowd. If you cant use match bullets then dont use match bullets—they may make a bigger hole in a critter, but other bullets also work well especially at close range like you mentioned.

 

[Wyo_hntr]

Bullets don't "blow up". They fragment. The more bullet present to fragment, the more damage will occur.

 

[mlevimadden]

Just listened to the podcast “Bullet Ballistics: A hunters guide”, seems like something funny is happening in the background as it got recast on my app and doesn’t appear in the previous episodes.

Anyway, basic premise of the discussion is that heavy for calibre match bullets (ELD-M, TMK, Bergeron, etc) are the best option for game. Which is a pretty simple recommendation, but I’m left with a few questions.

1, What’s the important part, the heavy for calibre part or subsequent lower velocity?
-Example given was a 100gr 6.5mm ELD-M at 3500fps is bad, 147gr ELD-M at 2800fps is good.
I assume this is because of the very fast velocity leading to bullets “blowing up” at close distance.

2, There’s was also a lot of talk of velocity ranges given for non match bullets (bonded, monos etc), is there a velocity range you need to stick to with match bullets?
-For a 223 would 88gr ELD-Ms be too slow, or would 73gr ELD-Ms in a 22 Creed be too fast?
-What about a 300blk or short barrel 308? Would you be better to for for a 200gr+ ELD-M or a 125gr TMK?

3, What do you do if you can’t use heavy match bullets?
-A lever action requires non pointed bullets, so for a 30-30 what would be the best option?
Many older cartridges, pistol calibres, lever action cartridges aren’t capable of the break neck speeds, so would you be better off with a 150gr bullet at 2500fps or a 180gr at 2200fps?

4, if you just hunt close range are the heavy match bullets still best?
-If I’m hunting 100yards and in 100% of the time, what is the best option? Ties in with the above question as there are many states where you need to use pistol cartridges, or for close distance hunting might it be better to just go for a very big/heavy bullet (35cal, 44cal, 45cal, etc).

1) You're correct. No bullet performs well at all velocities, so bullets are designed and constructed to perform best in a certain velocity range. If you're shooting monolithic bullets, you're better off going with a lighter for caliber bullet to keep your MV higher since those bullets work best above 22-2400ish fps and some guys run them all the way up to 4000 fps MV. Thin jacketed, match-type bullets are designed to expand down to lower velocities 18-2000 fps, but can have too much fragmentation to get the penetration if you start pushing to extremely high MV. I generally try to keep my MV under 3k fps for match bullets since I take a fair number of close shots.

2) See velocities I listed in my first bullet. Evaluate what the furthest distance you would shoot at a game animal is, and use a ballistic solver to find what bullet and MV you would need to stay above the effective velocity for that bullet at your maximum range.

3) Most people are still just shooting the standard cup-and-core bullets for lever actions because of the shorter effective range. The only "pointed" bullets I'm aware of are Hornady's Leverevolution line with special polymer tips. They are still flat-bottomed bullets with abysmal BC's though, so it won't be a long distance system, but I don't know of any lever actions intended for that purpose.

4) The vast majority of my shots are still under 200 yds, but I do go on hunts in more open terrain where longer shots are a possibility. I still shoot heavy for caliber match bullets and keep the MV around 2800. In my 6.5 PRC, this gives me a maximum effective range around 700 yds which is way further than I will be shooting anything. I used to hunt with a 45-70 shooting the 405 gr core-lokts when I was still hunting timber for whitetails. I see way quicker kills with match bullets than I did with those slugs, so I wouldn't go back personally. I've never hunted a state requiring straight-wall cartridges though.

 

[NSI]

The point is that errors in wind call have the greatest effect on projectile placement. Thus, minimizing wind error impact by using high BC bullets has the greatest effect on lethality. Generally, heavier match bullets have higher BCs than light ones.

-J

 

[Beetroot]

The point is that errors in wind call have the greatest effect on projectile placement. Thus, minimizing wind error impact by using high BC bullets has the greatest effect on lethality. Generally, heavier match bullets have higher BCs than light ones.

-J

While that is true, its not the point that is being made in the podcast.
Form says that match bullets make better hunting bullets, due to their tendency to fragment and tumble.

 

[Beetroot]

3) Most people are still just shooting the standard cup-and-core bullets for lever actions because of the shorter effective range. The only "pointed" bullets I'm aware of are Hornady's Leverevolution line with special polymer tips. They are still flat-bottomed bullets with abysmal BC's though, so it won't be a long distance system, but I don't know of any lever actions intended for that purpose.

Form says that the traditional cup and core bullets are objectively worse than match bullets, hence the question.

The podcast discusses the "ideal" perfectly mushroomed bullet and how people have been convinced with marketing that it's what you want (I think of Remington CoreLokts "Dealiest mushroom in the woods").
But form says you really want a bullet that will fragment and tumble, rather than just expand a bit.

 

[Formidilosus]

While that is true, its not the point that is being made in the podcast.
Form says that match bullets make better hunting bullets, due to their tendency to fragment and tumble.

Sort of. Heavy for caliber, relatively thin jacketed, tipped bullets that fragment consistently generally are the most optimized bullet for killing- that is, they maximize a bullet/calibers wounding potential.

Someone may not want the tissue destruction that comes with those bullets however, and may choose a different one. Hence the ever often “caliber” discussions.

 

[mtjimbo]

Both 140 eldm take from my bear this year, shot sub 100yds. Personally could not have asked for better performance, although my second shot took him in the shoulder as he was running away and was pretty catastrophic to the meat in that location. Didn't really need the second shot the first one was lethal but I typically shoot things into the ground

Sent from my SM-S908U using Tapatalk

 

[Beetroot]

Sort of. Heavy for caliber, relatively thin jacketed, tipped bullets that fragment consistently generally are the most optimized bullet for killing- that is, they maximize a bullet/calibers wounding potential.

Someone may not want the tissue destruction that comes with those bullets however, and may choose a different one. Hence the ever often “caliber” discussions.

You mentioned in the podcast about going too fast with match bullets (100gr 6.5mm for example) and that match bullets still expand at much lower velocities (223 at 800yards).
Is there a velocity range best to stay within or atleast not exceed?

What about if match bullets aren't available (pistol cartridges, lever action etc)? If using traditional hunting bullets is it better to go slow and heavy or fast and light?

 

[Wolfshead]

I get the point of the discussion, and I think in terms of being a bow hunter (while in fact I don’t bow hunt anymore).
I personally don’t want my bullets to frag too much.
I feel that if I can place my shot in the vitals sufficiently enough I don’t need it to, much like an arrow.
Keep in mind my shots are 300 and under.
My bullet of choice has been a 150 grain Nosler Accubond for my 30-06, and my .308 Win.
I’ve had great success with it from 30 yards out to my longest shot to date of 267 yards.
Out of my Win. Model 94 I shoot the 160 grain Hornady FTX bullet (handloads). I’m getting an estimated 2100 fps, and I’m pretty confident with it out to at least 150 yds.
So I guess that I’m middle of the road in a sense. I wouldn’t say I’m light for caliber, but I also wouldn’t say that I’m heavy either.
Maybe I shouldn’t be considered as I don’t shoot long enough for it to matter.
As I have said however, you can kill effectively with an arrow, placed in the correct area.
I think sometimes we over think this, and sometimes that is the fun of it, pondering the possibilities

 

[Formidilosus]

You mentioned in the podcast about going too fast with match bullets (100gr 6.5mm for example)

It’s not really “going too fast” for match bullets. It’s that a 100gr 6.5mm that fragments heavily simply has less length to come apart than say a 147gr 6.5mm.



Also, “match” bullet is a naming convention and has no real meaning or standards. Some “match” bullets kill exceptionally well, some poorly. It is a bullet by bullet thing- not a blanket statement.

and that match bullets still expand at much lower velocities (223 at 800yards).

Some do, most won’t come near upsetting at 1,400 fps impact.

Is there a velocity range best to stay within or atleast not exceed?

Depends on what bullet you are talking about- just like with “hunting” bullets they are all different.

What about if match bullets aren't available (pistol cartridges, lever action etc)? If using traditional hunting bullets is it better to go slow and heavy or fast and light?

Thats a totally different use case- those do not create high enough velocities to reliable fragment bullets and penetrate deep enough. Just a regular soft point is about as good as it will get.

 

[Beetroot]

Thats a totally different use case- those do not create high enough velocities to reliable fragment bullets and penetrate deep enough. Just a regular soft point is about as good as it will get.

So as a rule of thumb if you can't get a "match bullet" to stay above, say 1800fps similar to the Barnes TTSX or bonded bullets?

Reason I ask is I listened to the podcast just as I was thinking about starting to reload for a 303 that I wanted to use for close distance hunting. I have a 260 (with 140 ELD-Ms) and a 223 (73gr ELD-Ms) but they are pretty heavy rifles and way over scoped for bush hunting, and I just want to use the 303.

If I have the choice of a 180gr SP doing 2300fps or a 125gr SP doing 2800fps, how will these perform inside 100 yards compared to a 140 ELD-M doing 2650fps or a 73gr ELD-M doing 2750fps?

 

[ARK_Ginger]

So as a rule of thumb if you can't get a "match bullet" to stay above, say 1800fps similar to the Barnes TTSX or bonded bullets?

Reason I ask is I listened to the podcast just as I was thinking about starting to reload for a 303 that I wanted to use for close distance hunting. I have a 260 (with 140 ELD-Ms) and a 223 (73gr ELD-Ms) but they are pretty heavy rifles and way over scoped for bush hunting, and I just want to use the 303.

If I have the choice of a 180gr SP doing 2300fps or a 125gr SP doing 2800fps, how will these perform inside 100 yards compared to a 140 ELD-M doing 2650fps or a 73gr ELD-M doing 2750fps?

I would personally try the Hornady .310 125gr SST intended for the 7.62x39. That would get you the fragmenting bullet and lower recoil you want.

I have some of said combination with the intended for a jungle carbine but I haven't gotten around to it yet.

 

[wgcracker13]

A big thing that got me turned more onto match bullets was Hornady's Law Enforcement website and the pictures of the match bullets going through different media then into ballistics gel (I believe it is the FBI gauged gel, not the 10% 20% clear ballistics gel). I find going to that website and looking at the pictures are hard to say that match bullets aren't good for hunting if the government is willing to use those same bullets on some bad guy. They have the bullets going through steel, plywood, glass and a few other things for a comparison. It would hit the material then travel about 15-16" in the gel. In my opinion, that more than enough to take down game animals.

Another thing to think about is how much flesh and bone do you really need to reach the vitals of the critter you are hunting. Hide, ribs, a shoulder (maybe, the shoulder may even be made of level 4 armor plate from how some people describe it), some dead space, 2-3" on most north American big game species, then the bullet is there to make some mayhem on the vital organs.

Just something to think a bit about, do some looking on hornadyle.com and it should provide some good pictures to ponder over.

 

[ztc92]

A big thing that got me turned more onto match bullets was Hornady's Law Enforcement website and the pictures of the match bullets going through different media then into ballistics gel (I believe it is the FBI gauged gel, not the 10% 20% clear ballistics gel). I find going to that website and looking at the pictures are hard to say that match bullets aren't good for hunting if the government is willing to use those same bullets on some bad guy. They have the bullets going through steel, plywood, glass and a few other things for a comparison. It would hit the material then travel about 15-16" in the gel. In my opinion, that more than enough to take down game animals.

Another thing to think about is how much flesh and bone do you really need to reach the vitals of the critter you are hunting. Hide, ribs, a shoulder (maybe, the shoulder may even be made of level 4 armor plate from how some people describe it), some dead space, 2-3" on most north American big game species, then the bullet is there to make some mayhem on the vital organs.

Just something to think a bit about, do some looking on hornadyle.com and it should provide some good pictures to ponder over.

Thanks for sharing this, there is some great content on that site for some of the ELDM’s among others!

 

[Beetroot]

A big thing that got me turned more onto match bullets was Hornady's Law Enforcement website and the pictures of the match bullets going through different media then into ballistics gel (I believe it is the FBI gauged gel, not the 10% 20% clear ballistics gel). I find going to that website and looking at the pictures are hard to say that match bullets aren't good for hunting if the government is willing to use those same bullets on some bad guy. They have the bullets going through steel, plywood, glass and a few other things for a comparison. It would hit the material then travel about 15-16" in the gel. In my opinion, that more than enough to take down game animals.

Another thing to think about is how much flesh and bone do you really need to reach the vitals of the critter you are hunting. Hide, ribs, a shoulder (maybe, the shoulder may even be made of level 4 armor plate from how some people describe it), some dead space, 2-3" on most north American big game species, then the bullet is there to make some mayhem on the vital organs.

Just something to think a bit about, do some looking on hornadyle.com and it should provide some good pictures to ponder over.

Looking at the results from the 223 75gr BTHP and the 6.5CM 147gr, it seems like both these and anything in between these is going to work well on game.

The 225gr ELDM 300PRC looks impressive.