** BROADHEADS ** Science & Math

[RosinBag]

So with the recent thread on fixed blade broadheads and field points impacting in the same spot through all ranges, I obviously respectfully disagree with that happening. @Billy Goat and I shared some PM's as he was interested in the actual numbers of speed degradation over distance. Today I went out and shout several arrows over the chronograph at 5', 60 yards and 100 yards. I am no scientist nor am I a mathematician, but here are my numbers.

Set Up: Hoyt Carbon Defiant 34, 69.5 #'s, 29.5" with a 420 grain arrow. The arrows are fletched with three, 310 Flex Fletch vanes if you want to take that into consideration for drag compared to your set up.

The field points were Easton Parabolic, the mechanical broadheads were Sevr and the fixed blades were G5 Montecs. (I also shot Slick Tricks and Ramcat Diamondbacks at 60 and they were very close to the Montec speed, so I didn't keep shooting them.)

The speeds are three shot averages at 60 yards and 100 yards. The speed at 5' were just one shot and recorded.

5'

Field Point - 282
Mechanical - 282
Fixed Blade - 282

* This was the outcome I expected.

60 Yards

Field Point - 256 (91% of initial speed)
Mechanical - 254 (90%)
Fixed Blade - 250 (87%)

* So the Mechanical was less than 1% slower (.0079) and the Fixed Blade was 2.34% slower than the Field Point.

100 Yards

Field Point - 230 (82%)
Mechanical -222 (79%)
Fixed Blade - 206 (73%)

So the Mechanical was 3.47% and the Fixed Blade was 10.43% slower than the Field Point.


This is why my opinion of that Field Points and Fixed Blades can't have the same point of impact over all distances. I believe that depending on your personal acceptable deviation from Field Points to Fixed Blades, one could think they were all impacting the same.

Side Note: I found the Montecs were only about 5" low compared to my Field Points, so I surmised my bow was set up to shoot the longer ranges closer. So I moved up to 25 yards and the Montecs were 4" high. So I reversed it and moved the sight to have the Montecs dead on at 25 yards, this put them roughly 16" low at 100 yards.

Obviously these were just my numbers with my set up and doesn't transfer across the board to every bow, draw weight, draw length, speed, etc. But all Fixed Blades will degrade speed at distance due to their drag factor compared to a field point regardless of the other factors present.

 

[RosinBag]

This is the set up in the event you want to shoot your own numbers. Protect your chronograph!

 

[Dos Perros]

That's good stuff, thank you for that.

I've always been a multi-pin sight guy, but I've never seen a more compelling reason to switch to a slider, especially if anyone makes one where you can have two sight tapes at once.

 

[RosinBag]

Another question that was posed was about how I shoot groups with Broadheads and Field Points and don't tear up arrows.

@5MilesBack

When I shoot or set my pins or get numbers for my slider I use the. NFAA. Hunter targets. 25 I use the 20 cm target, 60 i use the 50 cm target and 80 and 100. The 65cm target. If you are not familiar with those targets they have roughly a 1.5", 4" and 5" spot respectively.

I start at 60 as that is my furthest. Pin and my home. Mark for my slider. I will shoot five or six arrows at a time with filed points until my pin is dead nuts. I don't worry about damaging arrows or nocks. The Easton Parabolic points are very forgiving combined with Gold Tip Pin Bushings.

Then I shoot 25 with three FP's into one spot and 3 more into another until my mark is dead nuts.

When I get to 80 and 100, I will shoot groups of six or eight as it is along way to go to back and forth to get arrows. I will do this until I get my mark set.

Once all is set with FP's, I set up my broadhead target with four 1.5" dots and shoot an arrow into each one at 25. I can tell if they are grouping because it is the same exact spot I am shooting at. I am also shooting my FP's at their respective target to make sure all is matching up.

I use two 4" spots at 60 and shoot two BH's at each while still shooting FP's at their respective target..

At 80 and 100, I will shoot all four at the one 5'' spot with BH's and my FP's at their respective target.

I never shoot just one arrow and pull unless it is a tournament that dictates that.

 

[RosinBag]

I don’t know about two tapes at once, but you could have two sights if that is practical for you or the newer sights that use the aluminum sight tapes. You would have to get lucky with getting two that matched, as those just screw off and on.

 

[RosinBag]

That's good stuff, thank you for that.

I've always been a multi-pin sight guy, but I've never seen a more compelling reason to switch to a slider, especially if anyone makes one where you can have two sight tapes at once.

Another option is starting at 60 add one yard, 70 add two, 80 add three, etc. Then shoot them and see where you are.

 

[5MilesBack]

So you're essentially saying that you don't BH tune. I didn't see any BH tuning in your explanation with your group shooting. I BH tune first (when FP's and BH's are hitting the same spots consistently at 60), and then set up my sight when I'm completely done. I shoot a 7 pin SH Hunter with pins set for 20-80. I set up each pins elevation and windage shooting at horizontal and vertical lines. I always start with my 50 and put it directly in the middle of my sight guard. I shoot so that the lines bisect the pin and will shoot 4-5 arrows each for this, and then adjust that pin accordingly until the shots are all hitting the line. Then I move to the rest of the pins to set them all up until they're all consistently hitting where they should be.

It's then that I start doing my group shooting. I think we're just looking at this in different ways. But I may shoot 1000 arrows just from getting the bow where I want it in terms of feel and hold, tuning, and setting up my sight before I even start "practicing", and looking at groups.

 

[chasewild]

Literally sitting here like "Well obviously, but why the eff didn't I realize this?" Now I'm wondering if I need a new sight tape for my two blade.

Also explains why ulmer developed the Sevr with such tight tolerances

*for the record, I don't shoot expandables, but ulmer is god and, well, that's all.

 

[16Bore]

I reckon “long range archery” is a thing now.

35 yards max with a bow
75 yards max with black powder (open sights)
350 yards max rifle (270)

Welcome to East Street.

The longer you stretch it the more “technical” it gets. If you enjoy that sorta thing. I’d rather chase game than physics. Long for show, short for dough. Or doe, if that’s the case.

IMHO.

 

[Johnboy]

So you're essentially saying that you don't BH tune. I didn't see any BH tuning in your explanation with your group shooting.

Are you implying that the decline in BH arrow speed is due to the bow being out of tune, causing extra friction with a broadhead-tipped arrow? Just trying to understand the perspectives.

 

[RosinBag]

I reckon “long range archery” is a thing now.

35 yards max with a bow
75 yards max with black powder (open sights)
350 yards max rifle (270)

Welcome to East Street.

The longer you stretch it the more “technical” it gets. If you enjoy that sorta thing. I’d rather chase game than physics. Long for show, short for dough. Or doe, if that’s the case.

IMHO.

You are spot on with the longer you go, the more technical and difficult it gets. With any weapon system.

 

[16Bore]

You are spot on with the longer you go, the more technical and difficult it gets. With any weapon system.

And expensive!!

 

[RosinBag]

@5MikesBack I have a feeling as much as you shoot, we probably do many of the same thing in either a different order or a different technique to get to the same ending.

I didn’t mention much about tuning, just the shooting portion.

I generally paper tune / nick tune every arrow to a bullet hole. Then I do my version of a walk back, but it’s done at 3 and 10 yards. Once those two things are dialed in, I rarely have to move much for bare shafts or broadheads. If I do it is just a fraction of a bump to the rest.

I spend more time playing with timing and stabilizers to get the pin to float as slow and as little as possible. Once everything is set, I just work on me as I know what the bow is capable of, it’s just me that screws that up.

 

[RosinBag]

Are you implying that the decline in BH arrow speed is due to the bow being out of tune, causing extra friction with a broadhead-tipped arrow? Just trying to understand the perspectives.

I didn’t take it that way and I don’t think that is what he meant.

 

[PJG]

Nice job, nice to see actual numbers and testing

 

[Justin Crossley]

Good stuff Doug.

 

[Northernpiker]

Very interesting testing. I never thought broadheads would drag that much( or at all for that matter).
Nice shooting range Rosin.

 

[RosinBag]

Very interesting testing. I never thought broadheads would drag that much( or at all for that matter).
Nice shooting range Rosin.

Oh, that isn’t “my” range, it’s just the range I shoot at. It’s five minutes from my house so I feel like it’s mine.

 

[justin davis]

I have a feeling not all broadhead fly the same. Montecs might not be the most aero dynamic

 

[Trial153]

Absolutely all broadheads will be different, I think that pretty much is proven by this control. If there is measurable difference between a field point and low profile mechanical then there for sure will be a measurable different between broadhead styles.

 

[JNDEER]

Good stuff Doug.
There has got to be a math guy on here to figure out what actual POI would be given those speeds??

They allow archers to fling BH at Maya?