Broadhead tuning & shooting form question

[jmez]

To add to the shoot through system. Unless you are shooting a true shoot through system with split cables you are going to have cam lean. Unless the cables are split like on the OK Archery stuff, all you have is a riser cage. It will increase the stiffness of the riser some but is not a true, shoot through system.

Back to the OP, bare shaft tuning is a great tool. IMO you are probably not quite ready for that step. In order to get good flight with a bare shaft, not only do you need a perfect tune, you also need nearly perfect form. If you are new to the sport and working through some possible form and grip issues you are going to pull your hair out with bare shafts. If you are going to shoot some bare shafts you need to start at about ten feet. If is very easy to completely miss a target at 20 yards with a bare shaft.

Dos Perros, I would find a new shop as well. You have poor arrow flight and that is why your BH's shoot low and left at 50 yards. Your arrow is coming out of the bow nock high and nock right, not straight. With a FP your fletching is able to over come this to a degree and you hit where you aim. Since the BH steers from the front and doesn't allow the fletching to straighten the arrow you get the result that you are having. Your BH tipped arrows are not hitting the target square and this robs a lot of energy and will effect both penetration and performance on game. Being off 5 inches at 50 yards is not that much. If you have yokes on the bow a half twist in the right side and a half twist out of the left side will likely get them to the center. Dropping the rest about 1/16 of an inch should pull them up where you need them.

If you tune the bow to get your BH's and FP's hitting essentially the same you will have good, straight arrow flight. If you just move the site you still have poor arrow flight and are just changing where you hold the bow to start.

 

[mmccolloch]

Hey guys, I have another update on this.

I had an Ace Ripcord with micro-adjust installed on my bow yesterday and decided to play around with the rest adjustments, etc. Also note, this rest was installed at the same shop that did the tuning in the first place and they realigned the centershot of the new rest with the laser alignment tool. When I got home, I did the lip stick test on my fletchings to verify that there wasn't any clearance issues.

I finally setup a very sketchy but functional paper tuning setup consisting of a saw horse, a couple of woodworking clamps, & an old storm door window frame with the glass taken out. It's amazing what a guy will do to get their bow working correctly!! haha.

I'm getting a really bad tail right paper tear at point blank, 3 yards, & 5 yards. See the picture below for reference.



Also, see below for a picture of my broadhead/field point grouping at about 17 yards. The red fletched arrow is the broadhead, the blue is the field point. The broadhead hit low because it was a bad shot, but you can tell by how chewed up the left portion of my target is that is typically where the broadheads hit. Note that this is my grouping prior to ANY adjustments to the arrow rest.



Another interesting picture. Red fletching is broadhead, blue is field point, and the bare shaft all at 17 yards. In this picture, I moved my rest to the right by 1/32". You can see that this helped the POI of the broadheads, but the bareshaft is completely jacked up. I shot these arrows in a big rush this morning, so don't comment on the accuracy.



Everything I read online, especially from the Eastons bow tuning guide says that a bare shaft impact like that is a sign of an over-spined arrow, but the Gold Tip arrow selection charts say that I'm right in the wheelhouse with my 300's....

Do these pictures shed any light on any other issues I may have???

I'm learning more every day. This has been a great learning exercise at the very least.

Thanks guys!!!

 

[BackcountryMT]

You've got something very serious going on. It could be some degree of hand torque but there is more there. Your shop should have paper tuned that rest at the shop, that's part of the install. These can be very hard to diagnose without the bow in front of you...

Do you have any other shops in the area?

 

[Jason Snyder]

I highly doubt you are over spined with those arrows. If you want to check, simply change to a heavier point/lighter point and see if it changes the issue at all. A change will indicate a spine reaction.

Edit: have someone take some pictures of you at full draw, both from the side and from behind.

 

[jmez]

That is all pretty consistent with your problems prior to changing the rest. I would still say you are having a grip isssue first and foremost.

 

[boom]

In my experience, your grip and form need to be damn near perfect to shoot a bareshaft.

That's just me.

 

[Dos Perros]

You need a different shop. I'd find a way to fix the problem.

There isn't a better one within an hour, I've been to them all. I think if I push the issue this guy will help me, though. I need to buy a new string and re-tune so I'll guess we'll just do that then (soon).

 

[mmccolloch]

Backcountry MT:

I definitely agree with you. Unfortunately, I don't really have another shop in the area that I can trust at all. The one other shop that I have taken it to before and since stopped going to, has terrible customer service and usually is not willing to help at all, so I refuse to take my bow there anymore.

I took it to a shop a couple of hours away one day (when I was in the area already) and just got told that I should switch broadhead types...

The shop that installed the rest let me shoot through paper a couple of times and I got a right tear, but the guy just told me that in his opinion, my arrows were over spined, that's when I decided to try some testing at home.

Jason Snyder:

I've tried a 125 grain broadhead to see if I can get better results, but the broadheads actually group further to the left. I haven't tried any heads that are lighter than 100 grains, however.

See below for a few pictures of my grip & anchor points, & draw:











A few questions that I have:

1. Can punching the trigger cause tears & arrow flight that is this bad? Usually on my really bad misses I feel like it's because I punched the trigger. That being said, when I'm shooting well, I can repeatedly hit a dime sized spot on my target at 10 yards.

2. I'm wondering if I need to shift my rest to the left to try and fix the tear and then re-sight in?

 

[Jason Snyder]

mcculloch,

I can only see one of your photos. What I do see though tells me it's a form problem. It looks very much like your bow is angled from the rearview photo. Could be a grip issue or your DL is too long.

I think a spine issue would be my last suspicion. Just because you are shooting accurately doesn't mean form is perfect, or even good. It just means your bad form is very repeatable.

Do this:

Come to full draw and luck up your string to the top cam/idler. Is the string coming off perfectly straight or at an angle?

Have some one take a picture of your grip hand from the front.

I spent a lot of time trying to remedy a similar situation one year. My BH consistently hit right of my FP and nothing I could do tuning wise would change it. Finally, someone picked out a subtle issue with my grip that completely eliminated the problem. He found that by the angle of my string off the idler wheel.

 

[mmccolloch]

Jason,

I just fixed the pictures, (I think.)

At full draw, it looks like the strings are coming off of the came perfectly. If there is any cam lean, I can't see any, and neither could my buddy when he looked while I was drawn back.

 

[BackcountryMT]

Draw length looks 1/2" too long to me. You're leaning back just a little

 

[Jason Snyder]

Draw length looks 1/2" too long to me. You're leaning back just a little

Agreed, DL looks to long.

 

[mmccolloch]

I should've prefaced my draw picture by saying that it is an older picture from a few weeks ago. I'm not sure if you can completely tell in the picture, but the reason I'm leaning back is because I was letting my bow arm shoulder collapse towards my spine which was forcing me to lean back. I have since fixed this issue and my shooting has improved greatly (at least I feel it has.)

I initially thought that my draw length was too long as well, and I changed it to 28.5", but I have since changed it back to 29" since I have fixed my shoulder collapse issue. At 28.5", It felt like I had to tweak my neck pretty bad to get my sight picture correct.

 

[Manosteel]

yup dl to long, you can see that you are leaning back from the hips up. Nutz & Bolts over at AT has some great pics describing form and how to spot draw length issues.

 

[mmccolloch]

I'm going to get updated pictures of my form at full draw with my current setup and post them up for a reference. I'll also switch my draw length back to 28.5 over the weekend, take some pictures, and see what my tears & broadheads do. Is it completely out of the realm of possibility that changing back to 28.5" draw length will get rid of a 3" tail right tear assuming DL is my only issue?

 

[BackcountryMT]

It might help but I don't think it'll completely cure it.

 

[boom]

DL looks long.

 

[jmez]

DL looks dead on to me. You are correct and already stated why you were leaning back. Bow arm shoulder is collapsed back and up . Grip looks good in the pics.

I assume you don't have a bow press? Is your centershot set at the factory specification for the bow? 1 full twist in the right yoke and 1 full twist out of the left yoke you go a long way in improving your paper tear and BH grouping.

 

[boom]

I always load an arrow when I'm drawing back bow.
Jmez;
You don't think front arm is too straight?

 

[5MilesBack]

I've shot from some pretty funky positions where my draw and body was all over the place and never had any issues with BH's being that far off. I still think it's the setup.