Boots - are we doing it wrong

[ih8hunting]

How do you propose to support your feet and ankles when carrying out half an elk over uneven and steep terrain without supportive footwear?

Cut the bs-
You can't carry a 1200 lb. elk regardless
you can only adjust to carrying half an elk because it's about the same size as your mother
since I am much wiser- here is my advice to a novice such as yourself.
1. use a scalpel
2. cut the cape, starting at the leg
3. muscles
4. head

if you can't carry meat and a head that's almost as empty as yours- then I'd retire hunting and go into ballet.

 

[ScreamingPotato]

Cut the bs-
You can't carry a 1200 lb. elk regardless
you can only adjust to carrying half an elk because it's about the same size as your mother
since I am much wiser- here is my advice to a novice such as yourself.
1. use a scalpel
2. cut the cape, starting at the leg
3. muscles
4. head

if you can't carry meat and a head that's almost as empty as yours- then I'd retire hunting and go into ballet.

Wow

 

[Geewhiz]

Cut the bs-
You can't carry a 1200 lb. elk regardless
you can only adjust to carrying half an elk because it's about the same size as your mother
since I am much wiser- here is my advice to a novice such as yourself.
1. use a scalpel
2. cut the cape, starting at the leg
3. muscles
4. head

if you can't carry meat and a head that's almost as empty as yours- then I'd retire hunting and go into ballet.

Bad day??

 

[WaWox]

I do love the pro boots argument along the lines of "people at this job would laugh at you if you were to show up with lightweight shoes". If the people in that profession *laugh* at the thought of trying something different, then by definition almost, they havent tried anything new. And without experimenting with something new you can stay arbitrarily wrong for arbitrarily long.

We laughed at washing hands in medicine, we laughed at small calibers for big game, and we laughed at minimal trail runners. Without experimenting you simply dont know what would be better.

Note, not disputing the need of a firefighter to wear ultra protective boots that protect against burns, nails or rebar poking through, etc. Steel capped boots have probably saved a lot of feet across a lot of industries. Keep wearing those -- but give minimal shoes a try in the mountains.

And to the goat argument... I have goats. I trim their hooves. Their nails softer than my toe nails, just thicker, and their hooves are incredibly articulate and flexible. Each toehoof can move independently and with huge range of motion. Thats how they climb -- and thats why i need flexible boots on bad terrain, i need to feel the little crevices and little cracks to balance and climb

 

[Coldtrail]

I've battled foot and tendonitis issues most of my adult life, tried lots of different footwear to remedy it. I was able to control tendonitis by switching to lower height boots but the foot pains are a never ending battle. This summer I was starting to end hikes with the onset of metatarsalgia and certainly didn't want that to set in for the fall/winter so I set my stiff boots aside and started using trail runners for my climbing workouts, I've done several climbs in rocky terrain and not once hiked out with anywhere near the pain my stiff hikers gave me. I did 7mi yesterday with a 20lb day pack wearing a well fitting pair of 7" red wings.....no pain for the first time in months. I wear 12" pacs with minimal support daily all winter long with a pack logging lots of miles and rarely have any issues during those months. Will going with less support work for everyone? nope, but worth a try.

I think the boots are like truck tires, a person will spend a fortune on lift kits, wheels and tires to put on a truck that logs 2000mi of driving at 80mph on cement to get to a hunting destination, but run mud tires just in case we get that weather event that happened back in '93 where that 10mi of road got muddy. Then complain that everything upstream from the wheels is wearing out faster. Same goes for boots, buy footwear for the 2000, not for the 10, save your feet, knees, hips, and lower back.

 

[Szwampdonkey]

I always wore what you are calling a heavy shank boot in residential framing and general construction for three decades, and others wore everything from tennis shoes to light boots to boots like mine.

Working alongside the same guys for a decade before I changed careers was telling. One of the biggest fans of light weight boots has turned his ankles enough times on small rocks and uneven ground that it has permanently stretched things out and his ankles hurt all the time. I watched his most serious injury and it was only a slight side hill where he put his foot down wrong - my boots wouldn’t even allow that injury on that slope. That was the most obvious case, but it happens all the time in construction.

Not only would I never work or hunt in flimsy boots, seeing with my own eyes dozens of times what injuries come from flimsy shoes and boots, I find it laughable that someone would suggest otherwise. Being a contrarian seems to be the path many take for more clicks, views, and traffic - it doesn’t make it true.

A good supportive arch requires some time for a foot to get used to it - some people get rid of their boots (or hockey skates) too quickly or push it too hard. The decade before construction I lived 7 days a week in Whites boots - the most comfortable boots ever with a significant stiff arch.

I’ve also had some PF issues and consulted with an orthopedic surgeon who was also a dedicated hunter. His take was my stiff firefighting boots or stiff hunting boots had nothing to do with it, although a stiff boot is painful since it puts more support pressure on the arch. His best guess is I would eventually need surgery when I was tired of the pain, but to find ways to exercise that don’t hurt and in some cases it will clear up eventually. At least in my case I’m glad he didn’t say it was absolutely needed - inactivity and extra weight made it flare up the most, and with moderate exercise it did eventually clear up completely and never bothered me again. I’m probably lucky in that regard, but it’s alway in the back of my head it could come back any time - so far a number of decades have passed.

Hopefully your arches will get back to normal without anything lingering long term that requires going under the knife.

Its possible that had you always wore less supportive boots, meaning from youth on up, that your ankles, feet and arches would be strong enough to resist injury from any sort of terrain. There is mounting evidence to support this and honestly it passes the smell test. Its just very recently and in only modern, well heeled societies we have these stiff and expensive boots.

A normal, healthy foot looks "grotesque" and misshapen to us. Wide with splayed toes but i would bet my bottom dollar that some native somewhere walking around some jungle barefoot with wide splayed out toes will outperform you or anyone on this site moving around any mountain. At the end of the day they would be snickering at us with our sore feet, injuries, and blisters as they just keep on keeping on leaving us in their dust.

I think the stiff boot phenomena compensates for the poor shoes, boots, and subsequently weak feet we have since our youth in the modern world. Akin to a cripple needing crutches or a wheelchair. So in a sense, you may be right that most adults will now NEED that stiff boot to make up for their weak feet and ankles. I know some people that have their kid walking around barefoot all summer. Id bet that kid will have pretty healthy and strong feet as an adult? Only time will tell but it passes the smell test with me.

 

[Josh Gray]

I know it was mentioned before but as extreme as our hunter-gatherer ancestors were I assume most were not frequenting some of the places we choose to go. We’re able to go hunt in these extreme places because if we’re unsuccessful we can just go to the grocery store for beef. Our ancestors could not afford to go chase a single animal at 13,000’ then try to get it all back down the mountain to their tribe. Also, I don’t think high altitude porters in 3rd world countries are choosing to wear worn out tennis shoes because they prefer them but because that’s all they’ve ever had available to them.

Mountaineering boots weren’t developed necessarily because of weak feet but to provide an advantage over less supportive footwear. Even if you take away front pointing or kicking steps in steep snow, the edging ability of a vibram soled mountaineering boot on 4th/5th class terrain and security in loose talus is phenomenal. I personally love doing fast technical mountain days in trail runners but if I have more than 30# on my back for multiple days in similar terrain I’m going for a leather mountain boot. Stiff boots saved me from broken ankles after taking a tumble off a 25 foot cliff a few years back.

Personally I like to choose my footwear based on what the majority of my hunting will look like not necessarily what the pack out will be and that may be a Solomon mid or a 8” mountaineering style boot.

 

[TaperPin]

Its possible that had you always wore less supportive boots, meaning from youth on up, that your ankles, feet and arches would be strong enough to resist injury from any sort of terrain. There is mounting evidence to support this and honestly it passes the smell test. Its just very recently and in only modern, well heeled societies we have these stiff and expensive boots.

A normal, healthy foot looks "grotesque" and misshapen to us. Wide with splayed toes but i would bet my bottom dollar that some native somewhere walking around some jungle barefoot with wide splayed out toes will outperform you or anyone on this site moving around any mountain. At the end of the day they would be snickering at us with our sore feet, injuries, and blisters as they just keep on keeping on leaving us in their dust.

I think the stiff boot phenomena compensates for the poor shoes, boots, and subsequently weak feet we have since our youth in the modern world. Akin to a cripple needing crutches or a wheelchair. So in a sense, you may be right that most adults will now NEED that stiff boot to make up for their weak feet and ankles. I know some people that have their kid walking around barefoot all summer. Id bet that kid will have pretty healthy and strong feet as an adult? Only time will tell but it passes the smell test with me.

I’ve had good boots since I was 18 and my tendons and ligaments are in great shape from not being injured.

In professions like woodland fire good supportive boots are essential - the guys with thin boots are the ones turning ankles and complaining. Nope - nothing about 3rd world countries will convince me that the decades of seeing the pros and cons first hand were figments of my imagination.

If you guys want to wear socks or no shoes at all, knock yourselves out.

 

[jpmulk]

I know it was mentioned before but as extreme as our hunter-gatherer ancestors were I assume most were not frequenting some of the places we choose to go. We’re able to go hunt in these extreme places because if we’re unsuccessful we can just go to the grocery store for beef. Our ancestors could not afford to go chase a single animal at 13,000’ then try to get it all back down the mountain to their tribe. Also, I don’t think high altitude porters in 3rd world countries are choosing to wear worn out tennis shoes because they prefer them but because that’s all they’ve ever had available to them.

Mountaineering boots weren’t developed necessarily because of weak feet but to provide an advantage over less supportive footwear. Even if you take away front pointing or kicking steps in steep snow, the edging ability of a vibram soled mountaineering boot on 4th/5th class terrain and security in loose talus is phenomenal. I personally love doing fast technical mountain days in trail runners but if I have more than 30# on my back for multiple days in similar terrain I’m going for a leather mountain boot. Stiff boots saved me from broken ankles after taking a tumble off a 25 foot cliff a few years back.

Personally I like to choose my footwear based on what the majority of my hunting will look like not necessarily what the pack out will be and that may be a Solomon mid or a 8” mountaineering style boot.

Good response. Exo addressed this in their podcast as well. Making the point that the majority of hunters don’t need a stiff boot 90% of the time. Heavy pack on steep terrain is the exception. However that is not even close to the majority of the average hunters time. His point, is it’s better to wear a boot that is healthier for your foot (light and flexible) as that is what you need 90% of the time. Podcast explains it better.

I hear what you are saying and there is a time for stiff boots for sure. Unfortunately, it seems to be the norm now and I don’t think that is the answer as it’s like wearing a cast most of the time, which weakens tendons and ligaments in the feet and ankles.

 

[jpmulk]

In summary, it’s not a one size fits all situation. There are exceptions, but I do believe being in a flexible boot is better for most people the majority of the time.

 

[ArmyAg97]

Cut the bs-
You can't carry a 1200 lb. elk regardless
you can only adjust to carrying half an elk because it's about the same size as your mother
since I am much wiser- here is my advice to a novice such as yourself.
1. use a scalpel
2. cut the cape, starting at the leg
3. muscles
4. head

if you can't carry meat and a head that's almost as empty as yours- then I'd retire hunting and go into ballet.

That escalated quickly

I’ve tried heavy “supportive” boots and minimalist stuff. I’d never go back to heavy stiff boots. How many of you ardent heavy stiff boot guys have tried both? If you’ve tried both and prefer stiff, more power to you. But don’t knock minimalist boots until you’ve tried them.

Vivo trackers for the win.

 

[Josh Gray]

Good response. Exo addressed this in their podcast as well. Making the point that the majority of hunters don’t need a stiff boot 90% of the time. Heavy pack on steep terrain is the exception. However that is not even close to the majority of the average hunters time. His point, is it’s better to wear a boot that is healthier for your foot (light and flexible) as that is what you need 90% of the time. Podcast explains it better.

I hear what you are saying and there is a time for stiff boots for sure. Unfortunately, it seems to be the norm now and I don’t think that is the answer as it’s like wearing a cast most of the time, which weakens tendons and ligaments in the feet and ankles.

Yeah that’s something that’s easy to forget, I’m guessing 90% of big game hunters are not getting above treeline and navigating 30 degree slopes.

Good response. Exo addressed this in their podcast as well. Making the point that the majority of hunters don’t need a stiff boot 90% of the time. Heavy pack on steep terrain is the exception. However that is not even close to the majority of the average hunters time. His point, is it’s better to wear a boot that is healthier for your foot (light and flexible) as that is what you need 90% of the time. Podcast explains it better.

I hear what you are saying and there is a time for stiff boots for sure. Unfortunately, it seems to be the norm now and I don’t think that is the answer as it’s like wearing a cast most of the time, which weakens tendons and ligaments in the feet and ankles.

agree 100% Thus is why I think trail running on rocky/steep trails is a superior way to build endurance. You kill multiple birds with one stone. Then once you layer in boots and pack training your lower legs & feet are indefatigable.

 

[jpmulk]

That escalated quickly

I’ve tried heavy “supportive” boots and minimalist stuff. I’d never go back to heavy stiff boots. How many of you ardent heavy stiff boot guys have tried both? If you’ve tried both and prefer stiff, more power to you. But don’t knock minimalist boots until you’ve tried them.

Vivo trackers for the win.

I wanted to like the trackers, don’t think I’m quite ready for them. Felt a lot of rocks through them. But, I’m in pretty rocky terrain. Ended up with Lems summit. Really liked them.

 

[kpk]

Cut the bs-
You can't carry a 1200 lb. elk regardless
you can only adjust to carrying half an elk because it's about the same size as your mother
since I am much wiser- here is my advice to a novice such as yourself.
1. use a scalpel
2. cut the cape, starting at the leg
3. muscles
4. head

if you can't carry meat and a head that's almost as empty as yours- then I'd retire hunting and go into ballet.

 

[Szwampdonkey]

I’ve had good boots since I was 18 and my tendons and ligaments are in great shape from not being injured.

In professions like woodland fire good supportive boots are essential - the guys with thin boots are the ones turning ankles and complaining. Nope - nothing about 3rd world countries will convince me that the decades of seeing the pros and cons first hand were figments of my imagination.

If you guys want to wear socks or no shoes at all, knock yourselves out.

Well....youve missed my point completely but thats ok. No problem with disagreements particularly when there is no wrong or right answer in the end. Its not wrong to wear the stiffest boot possible to walk 2 miles up a mountain nor is it wrong to walk that same 2 miles up the mountain in tennis shoes.

Though i will say i landed on this thread because i spent 20 years in cheap, flexible boots with zero issues with my feet. Then changed over to expensive stiff hunting boots as my bank account gave me more flexibility than when i was a younger man and am now having all kinds of issues with my feet i never had before. So much so ive scrapped the expensive and stiff hunting boots and gone back to less supportive more flexible boots and these issues are going away. Logical conclusion is the expensive hunting boots were causing the issues i was having.

Clearly no one is going to change your mind anyways and thats cool as its your opinion and i can certainly respect another mans opinion. Have a great rest of your day man.

 

[WaWox]

BTW in ski mountaineering they wear basically socks as shoes .. every pound of boot weight fatigues your legs as much as ten pounds of pack weight, or so they say. Skimo folks are crazy but they are carrying weight with speed as the highest imperative up a steep mountain... and they arent donning heavy leather boots.

 

[Josh Gray]

They also wear skin suits that fit like a condom!

 

[WaWox]

Another aspect to this debate: it probably makes sense to differentiate:

1. injury prevention
2. foot and leg fatigue effects
3. technical features

Across 1 and 3, I think there can be debate, for 2 it's a no brainer that a super lightweight boot would do better than a heavy one. Weight may get you benefits for 1 and 3 but it can only be a negative for 2.

For 1, I am pretty sure a minimalist boot, when similar footwear is worn for all other periods of activity, too, does best most of the time: strengthening ligaments and joints is better than wearing a cast that may or may not absorb bumps. Even in bad terrain, the leverage exerted by a stiff shank may lead to injuries in knees (which are typically worse than ankle injuries) when a slip or fall is experienced, even if it saves your ankle. Moreover, I'd argue with more feel to terrain and greater toe splay flexibility, you will prevent a number of falls or tumbles before they even happen. But I will concede that it's not a "100% of the time" thing --there can be terrain and setups where injury risk is reduced by a heavy boot. I'd just want people to be realistic about how often they are in that terrain. (This also exempts say safety capped boots in machinery or forestry work or fire fighting boots -- no question injury prevention is the imperative there, but that advantage just doesnt apply to hunting !)

For 3, the heavy stiff boots will have an advantage when there are technical features or moves that they enable -- snow shoes need something to clip to, digging into skree or snow, ... you wouldnt wear a flexible boot inside a ski binding either
But again, how often do you actually hunt in a mountaineering skree field?

 

[chasewild]

I know it was mentioned before but as extreme as our hunter-gatherer ancestors were I assume most were not frequenting some of the places we choose to go. We’re able to go hunt in these extreme places because if we’re unsuccessful we can just go to the grocery store for beef. Our ancestors could not afford to go chase a single animal at 13,000’ then try to get it all back down the mountain to their tribe. Also, I don’t think high altitude porters in 3rd world countries are choosing to wear worn out tennis shoes because they prefer them but because that’s all they’ve ever had available to them.

Mountaineering boots weren’t developed necessarily because of weak feet but to provide an advantage over less supportive footwear. Even if you take away front pointing or kicking steps in steep snow, the edging ability of a vibram soled mountaineering boot on 4th/5th class terrain and security in loose talus is phenomenal. I personally love doing fast technical mountain days in trail runners but if I have more than 30# on my back for multiple days in similar terrain I’m going for a leather mountain boot. Stiff boots saved me from broken ankles after taking a tumble off a 25 foot cliff a few years back.

Personally I like to choose my footwear based on what the majority of my hunting will look like not necessarily what the pack out will be and that may be a Solomon mid or a 8” mountaineering style boot.

Everyone just read this post.

 

[Josh Gray]

Another aspect to this debate: it probably makes sense to differentiate:

1. injury prevention
2. foot and leg fatigue effects
3. technical features

Across 1 and 3, I think there can be debate, for 2 it's a no brainer that a super lightweight boot would do better than a heavy one. Weight may get you benefits for 1 and 3 but it can only be a negative for 2.

For 1, I am pretty sure a minimalist boot, when similar footwear is worn for all other periods of activity, too, does best most of the time: strengthening ligaments and joints is better than wearing a cast that may or may not absorb bumps. Even in bad terrain, the leverage exerted by a stiff shank may lead to injuries in knees (which are typically worse than ankle injuries) when a slip or fall is experienced, even if it saves your ankle. Moreover, I'd argue with more feel to terrain and greater toe splay flexibility, you will prevent a number of falls or tumbles before they even happen. But I will concede that it's not a "100% of the time" thing --there can be terrain and setups where injury risk is reduced by a heavy boot. I'd just want people to be realistic about how often they are in that terrain. (This also exempts say safety capped boots in machinery or forestry work or fire fighting boots -- no question injury prevention is the imperative there, but that advantage just doesnt apply to hunting !)

For 3, the heavy stiff boots will have an advantage when there are technical features or moves that they enable -- snow shoes need something to clip to, digging into skree or snow, ... you wouldnt wear a flexible boot inside a ski binding either
But again, how often do you actually hunt in a mountaineering skree field?

I think #2 is bit more nuanced… my main elk spot for instance, I leave the truck and theres no trail, just 1 off trail mile before I’m going straight up the mountain then it’s all sidehilling, some talus, but mostly just hiking horizontally on a 30 degree slope. My ankles get pretty hammered in a light hiker. Sure my feet are comfy but I’m moving so slow that weight isn’t an issue. I might feel different if I didn’t hunt that type of terrain.

But like I said if I’m day hunting bears in the fall for instance I pack the Salomon’s 100%.
Also if someone is just training by rucking in a stiff boot then your handicapping yourself, similar to relying on cycling to get better at footborn movement. Hunters would be better served to mix up there training on rugged terrain without much weight and wearing less supportive footwear. Save the rucking and stiff boots till your a couple months out.