Boots - are we doing it wrong

[Maverick1]

What boots are you using?

Keen Targhee II

 

[Formidilosus]

but there is a reason high altitude animals are hoofed. Stiffness increases performance in the mountains both going up and down.

Almost all prey big game animals are hoofed- including all the ones on the plains.

 

[fngTony]

How do you propose to support your feet and ankles when carrying out half an elk over uneven and steep terrain without supportive footwear?

Fair question. I’ve been doing foot exercises designed for people climbing/scrambling class 3&4 terrain. Not saying it’s feasible to pack an elk in your socks but there’s a lot of strengthening we can do there. From what I’ve learned modern society has us using our ankles front to back and not allowing our arches to flex. We should utilize and strengthen the three dimensional movement of our ankles and support our arches while flexing but not locking them in place.

To your point though it would take a lot of muscle building to take a steep step with weight and minimal shoe. Without some degree of a stiff sole your calf’s will have to compensate for the over flexibility of your arch.

 

[98XJRC]

I always wore what you are calling a heavy shank boot in residential framing and general construction for three decades, and others wore everything from tennis shoes to light boots to boots like mine.

I'm like you and have a similar experience of wearing a 8" stiff leather boot typically 5-6 days a week. That's what our feet and ankles are accustomed to. I believe the majority of people who have issues with stiff boots while hunting is because they are not in stiff boots regularly, and by regularly I'm talking 8-10 hours a day. Going from wearing sandals, dress shoes, or sneakers to a stiff boot their feet will hurt because it's not the norm. For those who aren't wearing a stiff boot regularly I can understand why a more flexible shoe may be more appropriate, however for others like you and I it would have the reverse effect as our bodies are expecting the support from a more supportive boot.

 

[5MilesBack]

I've been wearing "mountain" type boots designed for hunting for 40+ years without issue. If I've been doing it wrong all this time, then I don't know what right feels like. I did try some lightweight trail running shoes one time out on an elk hunt, and that was all I could tolerate with those. Having said that, I don't like ski boot type boots either.......too stiff and heavy.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

A lot of the guys I used to backpack and hunt with in the sierras got into the five finger shoes back in 2006 I think was the first spring guys started using them. This was a crew who spent minimum 100 nights in the back country every year during college. They never worked for me personally but it turned me on to more “minimalist” style boots.

There was a lightweight, flexible, waterproof boot made by Columbia of all companies (probably didn’t make them just slapped their name on them). I used these for 10+ years and that was the best damn pair of minimalist style hiking boots you could ever ask for. Perfect blend of weight, support without being too stiff, kept my feet dry, etc. I remember posting a photo here on Rokslide with a pack full of camp and meat on my way down the mountain, and got nothing but “you need better boots for that load” comments.

 

[shwacker]

Interesting topic.

I've done lots of miles in everything from plastic double mountain boots to minimalist trail runners (even experimented with barefoot for a while), with and without a pack. I find durability, stiffness, and traction to be features I like if hiking with a big pack. Stiffness radically improves climbing performance, but mostly you don't need that for hunting. Yet even climbing steep ice, where the sole is completely rigid, ankle flexibility is desirable. The durability issue is what moved me more to beefier boots generally.

More animals have probably been killed by people barefoot/wearing traditional foot coverings than anything made in a factory? Footwear has come a long way since then, but not all progress is helpful.

How is the fit on the vivobarefoot 'boots'? They seem like a great option for archery.

 

[TaperPin]

 

[Voyageur]

I didn't start the transition until I was in my 50's. I began knowing it would take a "long time." In my case it definitely did. Around the 10 year mark I felt I was finally "there." Now, after 15 years, I am able to take summer backpacking trips in Luna sandals as well as pack meat and hunt/hike all day every day in minimalist barefoot style shoes. During this time all my annoying foot issues cleared up as well.
It was a great move for me.

 

[jpmulk]

I didn't start the transition until I was in my 50's. I began knowing it would take a "long time." In my case it definitely did. Around the 10 year mark I felt I was finally "there." Now, after 15 years, I am able to take summer backpacking trips in Luna sandals as well as pack meat and hunt/hike all day every day in minimalist barefoot style shoes. During this time all my annoying foot issues cleared up as well.
It was a great move for me.

Can you share what your transition consisted of?

 

[jpmulk]

The Journal of the National Association of Chiropodists

Found this article which is interesting. I know nothing about the people who did the survey. I am suspicious of modern “professionals”. I’ve been to two different foot specialists and the biggest thing they pushed was getting me to buy their special insoles. One of which was $450. It’s hard to know who and what data to trust in today’s age when the reality is most are driven by money, not necessarily doing the right thing. I did get one of the insoles and found it caused my foot more damage than harm. When I told the professional this, he did not quit. He proceeded to pull out scissors and tried to make them work by cutting and reshaping the insoles on the spot.

Point being, I have a hard time trusting the modern foot “specialist”. They want business and money. I’m sure there are some good ones out there.

In summary, after reviewing this thread, im still very much leaning toward the minimalist trend. Not saying there is not a time or place for a stiff boot. But I do not believe that after thousands of years of human existence without modern shoes, all of a sudden we need these overly protective, angled, and expensive shoes. I think the study I stumbled across and posted here supports that. If someone else has contradicting or more supporting studies I would love to see them.

 

[JDBAK]

I have to wonder when I read stuff like this sometimes. Our ancestors did not have a lot of things we have now. That in no way means that it was ok or better. What kind of pain and discomfort did they have to endure. Our bodies are full of flaws and we use so many things to make our bodies operate better than they were "designed". Some people will benefit from certain types of footwear and some from other types.

I got up early one morning to finish packing out an elk and forgot to put my boots on. I had put on my cross trainers while I got ready and then just started hiking out. I didnt even realize it until I was a few miles in. I made the trip out without any issue but is was mild terrain. Got me thinking about if I really need a stiff heavy boot.

"Our ancestors did not have a lot of things we have now. That in no way means that it was ok or better."

I'd add that it doesn't mean our modern ways are necessarily better. To me modern supportive footwear is kinda like performance enhancement for the big race/competition. And kind of a crutch. Like a powerlifter wearing a squat suit and weight belt all the time. Sure, it can help reduce risk of injury with heavy loads on in rough terrain, but if that's all your feet ever get used to, then you're probably worse off over the long term.

It's pretty hard to imagine native Americans in moccasins were less capable and less robust than most of us modern wilderness athletes. Probably they'd have been even more resistant to injury wearing footwear with some degree of support and padding....if they didn't wear them most of the time. Find the right balance of support and protection, without becoming a foot cast.

Anyway, I suspect we don't really have a good gage on just how resilient feet can be going barefoot/minimalist, as virtually no modern person has grown up that way.

The other component I wonder about is dietary. I suspect if a kid grew up knowing only minimalist shoes, being meat based (no modern junk at all, and no/minimal grains), and living outside, he'd perform quite differently then modern adults.

I'm splitting the difference. Wear Vivos 95% of the time, but still wearing hiking boots for hard hunts. Seems to work, but god its nice to take the boots off at the end of the day.

 

[P Carter]

I think there are a number of studies in this area, and even more “bro science.” It’s easy to dismiss the studies - not enough time (12 weeks?); running “injuries”, like expressing pain, not indicative of whether there’s a long-term benefit, etc. This is one of the areas where I doubt there’s and actually “science answer,” in part because the end goal is impossible to define. (Is it to reduce injury? Decrease serious injury, while working through interim discomfort/minor injuries? Increase comfort? Increase ground feel?) To me, this is an area of n = 1 experiment.

Here’s two studies, for example.

Dan Lieberman, the dude whose studies were discussed in Born to Run, has a book that touches on the subject. There’s another book on the subject of bipedalism. If you haven’t read Born to Run, it’s bro science at its best/worst but a fun read. I link all these not to say that you should read them all, or that they’ll help you answer what to do, but just to show that there’s a lot out there, don’t believe it all, or any, but it’s kind of a fun topic to putter around on.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/19424280.2013.799538

Examining injury risk and pain perception in runners using minimalist footwear - PubMed

Running in minimalist footwear appears to increase the likelihood of experiencing an injury, with full minimalist designs specifically increasing pain at the shin and calf. Clinicians should exercise caution when recommending minimalist footwear to runners otherwise new to this footwear category...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Amazon.com

Amazon.com

 

[Voyageur]

Can you share what your transition consisted of?

It was never anything scientific or even very organized.
It started when I made a last minute change and wore a generic pair of running shoes on a summer backpacking trip. I was amazed at how much better my lower extremities felt at the end of each day.
From those shoes I moved on to "foot shaped" shoes with a zero drop sole. For me those shoes were Altras, specifically their Lone Peak model for trail use. Even though these shoes were foot shaped, they still offered plenty of foot cushioning in the soles. During this time I quit using all special insoles as well as the metatarsal pads (I think that's what they were called) that a podiatrist had once prescribed.
Leisure time was spent in Luna sandals when outdoors and barefoot when indoors.Over the course of several years I kind of forgot I was "transitioning" but it became more and more apparent my feet were changing in a healthy way.
I'm now to the point of wearing wide toe box, zero drop shoes with a thin flexible sole (Xero brand for the trail). My Luna sandals also have a thin sole that molds to the contours of my feet. In addition I have ditched my standard socks for toe socks. When I think of it, which isn't all that often, I do toe spacing stretches.
That's the short version. It's worked for me, but I won't claim to back it up with any sort of science.

 

[Pdzoller]

The risk of catastrophic failure is way too high. I’m all for it for day to day normal life. One shift of a small boulder, one exceptionally sharp piece of something, one bad step while tired with a heavy pack. No thank you. There are many reasons the average lifespan of people has increased over time and improved footwear is definitely on that list. Wear boots that fit.

 

[RCB]

A lighter boot just feels better to me. Early season I wear Mendel Moabs. Later in the season, I wear Crispi Lapponias. I never feel underbooted. But everyone is different. Try light and heavy and see what feels goods.

 

[Trial153]

you lost me at the god making my feet part.

 

[Big_wals]

I have been wearing minimalist shoes and boots for eight years, mostly vivo and lems, one pair of altras and a couple pairs of xeros. I used to deal with constant back pain, it disappeared once I started wearing them. I also would sprain or twist my ankles fairly often when hiking, hardly ever happens any more, and seems to heal much faster now. I work construction wearing vivo trail runners, can’t imagine going up and down ladders with stiff boots anymore.

 

[Big_wals]

Put a couple hundred miles on a pair of these running trails in Colorado when I lived there, other hikers will give you funny looks tho. Lol

 

[Formidilosus]

The risk of catastrophic failure is way too high. I’m all for it for day to day normal life. One shift of a small boulder, one exceptionally sharp piece of something, one bad step while tired with a heavy pack. No thank you. There are many reasons the average lifespan of people has increased over time and improved footwear is definitely on that list. Wear boots that fit.

No it isn’t. Weak feet are modern world thing- by and large “foot” and lower limb problems are not present to this day in cultures that do not wear shoes or only very soft shoes, or only sandals.




Everest porters:

tennis shoes-


Tennis shoes-


Tennis shoes-



Sandals-




And before the “well their feet are probably messed up”, no- they aren’t. Foot problems with them, and everywhere else in the world are at a way lower rate- sometimes near nonexistent, than in the modern world.


Feet are designed to carry weight and support one’s body and load. We (the modern world) have a weak feet, lower leg, and spine problem. As soon as a baby is born people put two caskets on their feet, the feet never develop muscular and tendon/ligament strength and stability, lower leg supporting structures never develop, injuries to knees and feet result, and then when you become an adult you get orthotic “supports”; meanwhile ignoring the very problem at its source- weak feet and legs.

“Supportive” footwear is just like most modern medicine- treat the symptom, not the disease and the root cause at its source.