Blackhorn 209 hang fire

[Tag_Soup]

Sabotloader,
Makes total sense. I can this being a big help, but I have a feeling if I just shim the back plate of my breech forward a few thousandths to reduce the blow back, I may be in business. I contacted traditions and they claim the standard 209 plug is designed to be compliant with BH209. I will start with trying to reduce primer blow back/improve primer fit and see where that takes me. I have a suspicion that primer fit and the CLP were causing the issue. If I can't solve it there, I may explore some breech plug mods.

Thanks! I really appreciate the great info.

 

[Tag_Soup]

Well, finally got out and did some shooting yesterday. It looks like the combination of getting rid of the CLP, seating the bullet harder, and shimming the back breech plate forward a few thousandths took care of the issue. Every shot was an immediate ignition and I managed a 1.25" 3 shot group at 100 once I got it dialed in. I did not clean between shots but did run a wire file (torch tip cleaner) through the flash hole between shots.

Looks like I won't be able to use the gun as the excuse in Utah later this month after all...
Thanks to everyone who provided advice!

 

[Curvebow]

I have used BH209 in my Traditions Vortek Strikefire. I have had slight hang fired using 120 grains and a 270 grain Federal Bor Lok bullet. Primers are Federal 209. On an out of state hunt, I loaded the gun in the morning. 3 hours later I got on a bedded buck and had a hangfire with the gun. On a back home late season der hunt, I loaded the gun the evening before. Late the next day, the load was dead when I lined up on a doe. The primer fired. The next day at home, 3 more primers fired but the load was dead.

I corresponded with Western Powder who makes the BH209 and also Taditions. Traditions says 120 grains is too much and to use Federal 209M primers. Western said that I was cleaning wrong using TC bore cleaning liquid & bore butter (my cleaning regiment for 30 years).

So, I cleaned the gun using oil based cleaners. Loaded gun and left it for a day (120 grains BH). Gun did a slight hangfire with a noticeable click-then bang. WTF......

Now, I'm pretty sure I'm done with 209. This powder has caused me a great buck and more grief that the past 30 years of smoke pole hunting combined! My prior gun (still have) is a TC Triumph. Shot it for many years with 150 grains of 777 pellets. Only issue ever was a late season hunt. The day before was dripping wet with melting snow. I should have reloaded the gun but didn't and had a hangfire. The 209 had no such conditions.

When this years early season for deer opens in a few weeks, my thoughts are to bring out the TC . I love the light weight and feel of the Strikefire, but feel cursed with that gun too, not just the 209.

 

[OXN939]

I have used BH209 in my Traditions Vortek Strikefire. I have had slight hang fired using 120 grains and a 270 grain Federal Bor Lok bullet. Primers are Federal 209. On an out of state hunt, I loaded the gun in the morning. 3 hours later I got on a bedded buck and had a hangfire with the gun. On a back home late season der hunt, I loaded the gun the evening before. Late the next day, the load was dead when I lined up on a doe. The primer fired. The next day at home, 3 more primers fired but the load was dead.

I corresponded with Western Powder who makes the BH209 and also Taditions. Traditions says 120 grains is too much and to use Federal 209M primers. Western said that I was cleaning wrong using TC bore cleaning liquid & bore butter (my cleaning regiment for 30 years).

So, I cleaned the gun using oil based cleaners. Loaded gun and left it for a day (120 grains BH). Gun did a slight hangfire with a noticeable click-then bang. WTF......

Now, I'm pretty sure I'm done with 209. This powder has caused me a great buck and more grief that the past 30 years of smoke pole hunting combined! My prior gun (still have) is a TC Triumph. Shot it for many years with 150 grains of 777 pellets. Only issue ever was a late season hunt. The day before was dripping wet with melting snow. I should have reloaded the gun but didn't and had a hangfire. The 209 had no such conditions.

When this years early season for deer opens in a few weeks, my thoughts are to bring out the TC . I love the light weight and feel of the Strikefire, but feel cursed with that gun too, not just the 209.

Same issues I had with BH209. Same result- switched back to 777 and have been good to go since.

 

[weekender7]

I've had the OP's same issue with BH209 in multiple muzzleloading platforms. The reason there are BH209-specific breech plugs is that it is relatively difficult to ignite, and therefore requires a larger diameter flash channel. I had about five hangfires with brand new powder using the correct breech plugs and proper loading protocols before I contacted Wester Powders' customer service. They told me it was my fault and then stopped answering my emails.

Switched back to 777 and have yet to have a misfire since.

Similar results for me as well. I tried one jug of BH and had to give it up. Luckily it was all practice attempts when the issues occurred and no hunt was sacrificed. I went back to the pellets and all was good again.

 

[peddler]

I have a TC G2 Contender .45 cal. I’ve never used anything but BH 209 and CCI MAGNUM PRIMERS and haven’t ever had a problem. Not one!

 

[Jmort1754]

Drill out the flash hole to I believe 3/32 it worked on my vortek. No hang fires now

 

[tdhanses]

For you guys having hang fires are you using Muzzleloader 209 primers or shot shell primers? ML primers are too weak for BH209.

 

[Jmort1754]

We use only Winchester 209 primers no black powder primers

 

[sabotloader]

We use only Winchester 209 primers no black powder primers

Even using the W209 doesn't always work. It really depends on the construction of your breech plug...

 

[Curvebow]

You have lots of replies above and they may have good insight.

I too used BH 209 in a Traditions Vortek Strikefire. I save the whining about the deer the BH 209 cost me! Anyhow, it turned out that my cleaning methods were not compatible with the 209. I used TC products like I have used for Pyrodex, 777 pellets, etc; like I have for the past 30 years and 4 other muzz guns. Long story short - it was mainly the cleaning products reacting with the 209 that caused hangfires (when loaded a few hours before) or total lack of ignition (when loaded the night before).

So I started using only oil based cleaners, and used a 1/8" drill to clean the nipple (as well as a wire tool for the actual hole) and bought different primers that were recommended by WEstern Powders who make 209. With the 209 powder, I still got slight, discernable hangfires. After all the monkeyfuddling around, I realized that in 30 years, I've never had issues like this. What was different?? Answer - the BH 209.

So, I now happily shoot 777 pellets again (have some new Hogdons Starfire pellets but haven't tried them yet). No hangfires, no hesitation. Pull the trigger, the gun goes BOOM - and reliably with the 777. Looking forward to hunting with the gun tomorrow with the knowledge & confidence that the gun will go Boom when I ask it to. Sure, the 777 burns a bit dirtier, but it was still hard to seat bullets after 2 or 3 shots using the 209. So, I fire 3 shots (when sighting in) then clean the gun fairly thoroughly. Same as I had to do with the 209.

While this may not be your issue, I read a lot about people changing primers, installing or looking for different nipples, drilling things out, etc. just to accomadate the BH 209. I know there are folks who love the 209 and I'm happy for them. But if you're having issues, maybe look past the 209 to something with less of a troubled reputation.

 

[Tag_Soup]

Well, long story short this was my fault and not the gun or powder. I found that the breech on the traditions is very tight and gets tighter in the area where the projectile is supposed to seat. I tried putting a ball starter over the end of the ram rod and whacking it really sharply with my palm and the projectile seared almost 1/2” further than it would with simply applying pressure to the ramrod with the supplied T handle.

Since the projectile has always come to a consistent stop I thought I was fully seating it. Ever since I have been using the ball starter over the rod and seating the extra 7/16”, my issue has been totally eliminated.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[ozman]

Following... I have had no issues to date with BH 209

 

[BAKPAKR]

So far, I have not had any problems with BH 209 in my T/C Encore. Like OFFHNTN, I am able to shoot 8-10 shots without swabbing the barrel. With 777 or Pyrodex, I have to run a wet patch down the barrel between every shot or I risk having to hammer the bullet down the barrel. With 777, I broke a ball starter trying to get a second shot loaded for another chance at a buck I had missed. A couple of days later, I shot a rag horn bull who did not realize he was dead after the first shot and he just stood there. I did swab before my second shot on him. I had just about given up on the Encore before I tried BH 209.

 

[ChrisA]

I've had my vortec striker fire loaded with 90 grains Blackhirn 209 for 2 years, in the name of science of course. Anyway, this thread got me thinking that I should see if it would fire even though I was extremely confident it would. So I primed with a Winchester 209 and gave it a test fire. Sure as hell it fired without hesitation.

Then I kicked my self in ass for doubting and now I have to clean it.

Have never had a problem but I've always used the Manufacturer recommendation of threatening it, as far as cleaning is concerned, like smokeless powder and clean with petroleum based cleaners.

Good luck,

Chris

 

[Azone]

I have been running CCI 209 primers with a Blackhorn 209 breech plug out of my CVA MR and have not had a hang fire ever. I dont remember what site it was on but I read an article on 209 primers and the results of this mans testing showed that Fiochi 209's (forgive the spelling if its wrong) and CCI 209's were the hottest primers on the market. My experience with people that have hang fires is they have either way too much bore butter or gun oil in the breech area that obstructs or saturates the powder that is contacting the face of the breech plug. Another problem is using muzzleloader specific primers which are weaker than the two I mentioned above. I have never shot Blackhorn without the Blackhorn specific breech plug either. My understanding of the breech plug is, is that it's easier to ignite a smaller column of powder first than trying to ignite the whole column at once. Also as soon as I'm done cleaning I always pop off a primer to get all the moisture out of the breech plug/area, then one dry patch to clean the residue out.

 

[Chesapeake]

I know a lot of muzzy hunting is about fiddle farting around with gadgets, but this seems overkill.

What is to be gained from BH209 that 777 doesn't already provide?

I have no issues firing 2 or 3 shots from my muzzle loaders with 777 before needing to run a damp patch. I don't need a special breech plug, or anything else. I run 777 with CCI #10's and have no issues killing elk in SW Washington in the rain and snow. My rifle will put a bullet through to the hide on the far side out to 150 yards without issue.

TagSoup,

What is it your looking for in 209's and BH209? Velocity, moisture resistance, ect..?

I think you should be looking for different bullets or something if you need to pound the bullet in the barrel to seat it all the way. How do you expect to do all that in the field?
It sounds to me like something is wrong other than powder.

 

[Azone]

In my experience BH209 fouls a lot less than 777 which translates to consistent bullet seating depth with a fouled barrel. My CVA shoots better on a fouled barrel than a clean bore. Anyone experienced with smoke poles knows what a pain in the ass it is to load guns with dirty barrels if you have a tighter fitting sabot. To eliminate fouling problems and the need of having to push with all your might to get the bullet seated properly, I switched to Federal border loks and BH 209. With this combo on a clean bore I can seat a bullet with hardly any pressure at all. When people have to beat and basically hammer a bullet down their barrel bullet concentricity will be affected, that affects accuracy. I can cover 3 shots with a Copenhagen can at 200 yards with this combo.

 

[dieselchessy]

The OP looks to reside in Washington. Though he doesn’t mention where he hunts. In Washington we can’t use scopes in muzzy season. Open sites past 100 or so is difficult for most in hunting scenarios, though there are dead eyes out there.

I understand the 777 crust, but haven’t seen it be an issue hunting and on the range its even less. Very easy to suck on a patch to get it damp for a swab every few shots. Or just shoot lubed patched roundballs for practice and each new load will swab a little for you.

About 60 grains behind a round ball mimics my hunting load. Cheap low recoil practice.

Just curious what the OP’s looking to achieve.

 

[Travis Bertrand]

2 things, 1 probably mentioned already. bh209 is a bp substitute but nitrocellulose based. thats why you use normal solvent with it and NO need to clean every other shot like trad powders. I can shoot 50 shots before cleaning my muzzy.

Is the hang fires happening after cleaning at the range?

Also, try Fiocche 209 primers. From my testing, it is more powerful than any "magnum" 209 or muzzy 209 primer out there.