Blackhorn 209 and non-sabot bullets not an ethical combination

[Balderdash]

Tat

I have had issues with first shot misfires, but I found that shooting a primer or two after cleaning solves the problem. Blackhorn does muck up the primer hole quickly and does need cleaning. I really like it as it’s easy to clean and once I figured out I had to foul the bore, it’s been reliable

Snapping off a primer before loading is always a good practice.

It might have been listed in this thread earlier, but for all posterity, I list it again: BH needs to be sealed up in order to get consistent ignition. As such, depending on the barrel diameter, shooting full bore bullets can cause some trouble. To account for this, on full bore bullets, use a properly sized loading disk between the powder and the bullet; on Sabots, air guage your barrel and use the proper size MMP sabots to seal your bore.

Similarly, if your primer comes out with a lot of ejecta on it, you're not achieving a good seal on the breech end. As stated, the o rings can be a good fix. For a couple of my rigs, I have primer pockets machined out for a CCI 209m. Designs that have an LRP in a brass case head are also a great way to seal it up, as are the Knight plastic DISC primer pockets, which also make loading and unloading a breeze.

The aforementioned measures also help keep atmospheric moisture from ruining your hunt.

 

[ElDiablito]

“Loading disks” and “air gauging.”

Hmmm….ok.

 

[Balderdash]

“Loading disks” and “air gauging.”

Hmmm….ok.

How else would you propose to consistently seal the powder column from the projectile end?

I've made most muzzleloading mistakes that can be made through the years. Just trying to pass along what I've learned to obtain consistent ignition.

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[swavescatter]

I think normally they're called wads, and I think you're referring to sizing the actual bore?

Just semantics.

 

[ElDiablito]

I think normally they're called wads, and I think you're referring to sizing the actual bore?

Just semantics.

Exactly - never heard anyone use those specific terms in muzzleloading.

 

[Balderdash]

I see what you're getting at. Years back I used to buy "Waxed loading disks". It was back in the days of percussion caps and real black powder, and I guess the name just stuck. And, for me, wads get loaded into shotgun shells.

I take my barrels over to a machinist friend's shop, and he runs an air guage through the bore to get the actual size so that I can order properly sized sabots. Seals up the powder charge and greatly improves accuracy.

 

[ElDiablito]

View attachment 535824

I see what you're getting at. Years back I used to buy "Waxed loading disks". It was back in the days of percussion caps and real black powder, and I guess the name just stuck. And, for me, wads get loaded into shotgun shells.

I take my barrels over a machinist friend's shop, and he runs an air guage through the bore to get the actual size.

I was going to ask how you propose the average guy air-gauge his barrel.

Really, there’s zero reason to do that - both companies that produce sabots - MMP and Harvester - offer a couple choices. Pick one. If it’s too tight for your preference - try the smaller one. Won’t likely affect accuracy/weatherproofing/ignition either way - it’s just a convenience thing.

 

[Balderdash]

I was going to ask how you propose the average guy air-gauge his barrel.

Really, there’s zero reason to do that - both companies that produce sabots - MMP and Harvester - offer a couple choices. Pick one. If it’s too tight for your preference - try the smaller one. Won’t likely affect accuracy/weatherproofing/ignition either way - it’s just a convenience thing.

To a certain extent you're right on sizing via trial and error or guestimation based on manufacturer and model; however, getting proper loading pressure is more than a convenience thing. Too loose and it doesn't seal and obturate properly, leading inconsistent ignition - too tight and the sabot gets crushed and the bullet can get deformed, usurping accuracy and, potentially, leading to sealing issues.


Most gun smiths will air guage a bore for a nominal fee.

 

[Bluefish]

Thor used to and I assume still sells a sizing kit. Bullets by .001“ increments to test fit, then buy the size you need. They also have a thin skirt to help seal under pressure.

 

[swavescatter]

Bullet to bore with a wad is the way to go. No need for sabots.

 

[ElDiablito]

To a certain extent you're right on sizing via trial and error or guestimation based on manufacturer and model; however, getting proper loading pressure is more than a convenience thing. Too loose and it doesn't seal and obturate properly, leading inconsistent ignition - too tight and the sabot gets crushed and the bullet can get deformed, usurping accuracy and, potentially, leading to sealing issues.

There just isn’t that much variation in factory .50 bores that an MMP HPH12 or HPH24 won’t work just fine for nearly everyone.

The other options are to use a wad or a sub base under the sabot if you think you’re not getting a good seal (which is rare). Or use a slightly larger caliber bullet (ie a .452 instead of a .450”) or to knurl the bullet slightly (a good idea anyway in many cases) to make the loaded diameter a couple thousandths larger.

Knowing the actual air gauged dimensions of the barrel doesn’t replace trail and error using different sabot/bullet combinations.

There are a couple models of CVA with a tighter that average bore but I believe the HPH24, Crushrib or superglide will work.

Ask about this on a dedicated muzzleloader forum - I’m not sure I’ve ever heard someone suggest air gauging a barrel.

 

[Balderdash]

It's not my intent to start a contentious back and forth.

I'm not sure why all the consternation about measuring a bore and then using that information to very accurately select the proper sized sabots for a given barrel; the process takes seconds, is very easy, and, based on a lot of experience with a many different ML's by various makers over a lot of years, it yields fantastic results with minimal fuss.

I'm not arguing that trial and error won't also yield good results, but why not start off with a combination that is exceedingly likely to get you there a lot quicker?

The idea to air guage a bore for proper sabot fitment came from MMP quite a few years ago.

I can pass along that HPH 12's avd 24's are not interchangable as far as accuracy outcomes in most .50 bores. Claiming that they, or any other size or configuration of sabot are equivalent and can be selected as a matter of convenience or loading preference is misleading. Its not a matter of I think or I feel; I've worked with a lot of different ML's through the years, and there are differences in accuracy and consistent ignition with BH with sabots that are too loose or too tight for a bore.

 

[ENCORE]

Sabots have no bearing on rather BH ignites or not. Everything related to ignition is solely related to the breech plug in use. Most all production breech plugs are problematic to some degree.
A high quality ignition system that uses modules will ignite BH every time and you don't need to have a certain sabot or bullet to bore fit.

 

[Balderdash]

Sabots have no bearing on rather BH ignites or not. Everything related to ignition is solely related to the breech plug in use. Most all production breech plugs are problematic to some degree.
A high quality ignition system that uses modules will ignite BH every time and you don't need to have a certain sabot or bullet to bore fit.

The following is copied from BH 209 webpage. Specifically, a section about consistent ignition:


"A muzzleloader is different than a cartridge gun, but many of the principles relative to the propellant are the same. The bullet is seated in the cartridge to create the pressure necessary to propel the bullet. A bullet in a muzzleloader needs to be compressed against the powder. The base of the bullet, or sabot needs to expand to hold the building pressure which propels the bullet. Imagine you placed a bullet 1 inch ahead of the case in a cartridge gun. The bullet most likely would not exit the barrel. This same principle works in a muzzleloader. Loose fitting bullets, like the typical Powerbelts, may be convenient to load, but lack sufficient compression to assure consistent ignition or accuracy.

Because there are no standards in muzzleloading barrels, the diameters vary between all manufacturers and at times within the same manufacturer. A Powerbelt may fit nicely in one and slide to the bottom of another. Just the simple act of carrying your gun in the field may allow the bullet to slide forward and when compression of the powder is lost the result is a misfire or poor accuracy.

We recommend a quality tight fitting sabot for the most consistent accuracy and ignition."

Blackhorn 209 – Hodgdon Powder Company

blackhorn209.com

I'm not sure where some posters are deriving their recommendations and seemingly definitive declarations from; I can pass along that after a lot of experimentation over a lot of years, my experiences are concordant with BH 209's recommendations. Both sides of the powder charge need to be sealed properly to achieve consistent ignition and realize the best accuracy.

 

[ENCORE]

The following is copied from BH 209 webpage. Specifically, a section about consistent ignition:


"A muzzleloader is different than a cartridge gun, but many of the principles relative to the propellant are the same. The bullet is seated in the cartridge to create the pressure necessary to propel the bullet. A bullet in a muzzleloader needs to be compressed against the powder. The base of the bullet, or sabot needs to expand to hold the building pressure which propels the bullet. Imagine you placed a bullet 1 inch ahead of the case in a cartridge gun. The bullet most likely would not exit the barrel. This same principle works in a muzzleloader. Loose fitting bullets, like the typical Powerbelts, may be convenient to load, but lack sufficient compression to assure consistent ignition or accuracy.

Because there are no standards in muzzleloading barrels, the diameters vary between all manufacturers and at times within the same manufacturer. A Powerbelt may fit nicely in one and slide to the bottom of another. Just the simple act of carrying your gun in the field may allow the bullet to slide forward and when compression of the powder is lost the result is a misfire or poor accuracy.

We recommend a quality tight fitting sabot for the most consistent accuracy and ignition."

I'm quite aware of what Western wrote, having used BH since it became available. I can go through a 5# container is less than 3mo.

However, and I'll say it again, the reason it is written that way is because there are so many PP breech plugs.
Breech plugs like the Arrowhead design and Hankins design will ignite BH without a compressed sabot/bullet combination. Quite frankly, they'll both ignite BH with nothing more than a wad.

 

[pk_]

I thought I wanted to switch to BH until I read this thread…

Btw, PA allows inlines, sabots and scopes during early Muzzleloader season. Then they have a late dedicated Flintlock season.

 

[Balderdash]

Encore:

In the video, the wad is doing more for the powder column than an ill fitted sabot or ill fitted full diameter bullet. It is also being fired directly after loading, not after being bounced or carried around for a day or two. If even a bit of powder can trickle around a projectile through the rifling grooves over time or the projectile or wad moves ahead even a little, while carrying, etc, you end up with a space under the bullet. Full ignition everytime is required for consistent accuracy, and the only way to achieve that is with a snug fitting object that seals the bore and holds the powder column together through the course of transporting and carrying the ML.

I can assure you that poor fitting projectiles, be they sabots or full diameter projectiles, will lead to inconsistent outcomes, even with the best ignition systems.

 

[ENCORE]

The whole issue is the ignition source, not rather the bullet is seated with 100# of force or the sabot/bullet the same.

Bouncing it around will make zero difference, nor will it being loaded for days make a difference, if there's enough pressure to hold the bullet to the propellant. The cylinders are large enough that they're not going to pass by a properly sized sabot or bullet. You'd have to have much deeper grooves than the rifles being made today to have BH pass through.

As for consistency, if you're loading properly and your charges/bullet are identical, you'll have consistency. You don't need to use a force gauge for loading and making sure loading pressures are identical to get consistency. You can have excellent consistency with bullet to bore shooting. We've beat the heck out of the rifles shooting competition at 1,000yds using 120grs by volume of BH, and there's consistency.
You can load a bullet that requires NO MORE than 10# loading force, and it won't come off the propellant unless you drop the rifle muzzle first.
Its the ignition system...........

 

[Balderdash]

Encore:

I enjoy a respectful discussion through which I can learn from others and/or pass along my experiences and mistakes that might help others achieve good results; to that end, I'd appreciate it if you didn't conflate or add hyperbolic elements to my statements. I didn't state or imply a "100 lbs" or mention "excessive" loading pressure. In an earlier post, I stated the importance of not having a projectile assembly that's so tight that the loading process deforms a plastic sabot or lead core projectile. It's a Goldilocks scenario - needs to be just right.

Your initial post on the subject stated that there is not any correlation to projectile fit and proper ignition of BH; part of it is stated in bold print. Your latest post acknowledges that there does in fact need to be enough pressure to keep the powder column tight to the bullet, which is all I've been stating throughout the thread.

I have witnessed powder trickling around a full diameter bullet. It was a Hornady FPB and the ML was a Knight - not sure of the model - powder was BH 209. Gentleman was next to me at the range. Complained of inconsistent ignition with several full diameter bullets he tried. Bullet was loaded with slight pressure to start in the rifling, then pushed in very easy. Gentleman fired and I could hear a slight hangfire. Next time he loaded, I watched more closely. Before firing I wanted to make sure that the bullet was tight to the powder; in the process of moving the ML to pass it to me, he tipped the barrel slightly forward, and a small amount of powder grains came rolling out the end of his barrel. We pushed the bullet down tight and could still get a couple of grains to trickle out. Perhaps the flange on the bullet was damaged through loading? Either way, it certainly did not fit tight enough to keep pressure on the powder column, which effectuated problems.

 

[ENCORE]

I was not indicating that you stated 100# force. I'm trying to make a point, having shot thousands and thousands of rounds of BH, that all that heavy bullet seating force to the propellant is not needed with a top quality ignition system. With a top quality ignition system, all you have to do is seat the bullet to the propellant. No pushing, no leaning on the ramrod.
The person you were watching shoot, I'm betting a cola that it was with an OEM breech plug. He/she was likely using the wrong 209 primers or, was getting a lot of blow back through the OEM breech plug.

Again, its all related to the ignition system.

When loading a bullet, the force to load with these PP breech plugs, does need to be more than just letting the weight of the ramrod push the bullet down. Huge mistake.

With a modified 209 breech plug, it'll also set the charge off with nothing more than a felt wad. Another just videoed and proved it the other day. Perfection.

Now on the other hand, a guy that does a lot of long range shooting in Idaho, mostly with side hammers, bought a Knight Mountaineer. He had issues from the start with no or improper ignition, shooting bullet to bore. Again, his whole problem was the OEM breech plug.

I shoot totally bullet to bore, but always use a wad. I size each bullet to load in a clean bore at 9# of force. Competing, or just target shooting I swab between rounds. Never swab when hunting.
I don't, and have never lost any propellant, which basically the wad takes care of that concern. My bullets remain on the propellant. Accuracy is phenomenal. If I have a good day, the rifle will shoot one hole at 100yds, 5 rounds not 3. The rifle shoots .3moa at 600yds.

Loading force, not seating pressure, can change velocity, but the seating force/pressure has no bearing on velocity.

I'm a retired Ergonomist and have the tooling to accurately measure force/s. Measureed 10's of thousands. But loading force should likely be discussed in another thread.