Black eyes

[tipsntails7]

I wouldn't say they got off easy, 49 state and federal citations seems a bit excessive. I have read about poachers here in utah, people legitimately guilty of poaching big game get off easier then that. As far as keeping their fishing and hunting license I see nothing in what they did to warrant taking them away. Yes, punish them for what they did but I think Montana and the USFS threw the book at them.

They should have thrown the whole bookshelf at them.

 

[BroodBuster]

I never called them poachers but harassment of wildlife is still a pretty damning violation in my book that should be enforced to the letter of the law.

Is it ok to chase wintering mule deer all day long in a snowmobile just so you can get some cool video? Just to have said mule deer die of exposure that night because they spent all day running instead of feeding.

Might not meet the definition of poaching but it still is theft of a precious resource from you and me.

 

[tipsntails7]

Here's a scenario: A guy is shooting at animals in a unit where he doesn't have a valid tag. He maybe hits one but there's no proof that he actually killed it. Is he a poacher by your definition?

Yes...

 

[Mtslackcountry]

I would say he is a poacher if he was knowingly hunting in a unit that he did not have a tag for. So I guess I see how this correlates to the MW crew.
I guess when I hear the word poacher I think of a dead carcass with the rack cut off. Thinking about it more I can see there are different levels of poaching as with anything else...
Thanks for making me think about that.
Question for you though if your fishing big streamers deep on a river known to hold bull trout looking to hook a lunker whether its a bull or a big brown are you poaching if the Regs say that you cant fish for bull trout? Or what about a guy slinging spinners all day and gets lucky and hooks one is he a poacher?

 

[mmw194287]

Yes...

Yea, no question in my mind either...

 

[airlocksniffer]

I would say he is a poacher if he was knowingly hunting in a unit that he did not have a tag for. So I guess I see how this correlates to the MW crew.
I guess when I hear the word poacher I think of a dead carcass with the rack cut off. Thinking about it more I can see there are different levels of poaching as with anything else...
Thanks for making me think about that.
Question for you though if your fishing big streamers deep on a river known to hold bull trout looking to hook a lunker whether its a bull or a big brown are you poaching if the Regs say that you cant fish for bull trout? Or what about a guy slinging spinners all day and gets lucky and hooks one is he a poacher?

In my mind poaching is about intent, whether you have a critter down or not. Regarding the bull trout, it's illegal to specifically target bull trout (not sure how the methods change for bull trout vs cutthroat, etc). I'm sure anglers accidentally hook bull trout sometimes. I personally wouldn't call that poaching. These guys were specifically fishing for bull trout in the tributaries.

 

[mmw194287]

Question for you though if your fishing big streamers deep on a river known to hold bull trout looking to hook a lunker whether its a bull or a big brown are you poaching if the Regs say that you cant fish for bull trout? Or what about a guy slinging spinners all day and gets lucky and hooks one is he a poacher?

Poacher, violator, etc.--to my mind it's not that important a distinction to make.

Not all violations are created equal. These guys deliberately and repeatedly (over the course of several weeks from the sound of it) broke the law in order to make a profit. In doing so, they harmed a threatened fish population (and the fact that they tout their "fish handling ethic" means they knew exactly what they were doing). They copped a cozy plea deal and afterwards released a statement where they called the FWP employees liars.

As far as I'm concerned, $6000 is nothing when you think about the amount of free high-end gear these guys have leveraged out of their films.

 

[Mtslackcountry]

Good point fellas. I feel like these guys ****ed up pretty big and the thing that is hard to get over for me is releasing and then catching again for the footage. I think their response was pretty weak. I wonder how many people would forgive them if they fully owned up to their shenanigans.

 

[tipsntails7]

I would say he is a poacher if he was knowingly hunting in a unit that he did not have a tag for. So I guess I see how this correlates to the MW crew.
I guess when I hear the word poacher I think of a dead carcass with the rack cut off. Thinking about it more I can see there are different levels of poaching as with anything else...
Thanks for making me think about that.
Question for you though if your fishing big streamers deep on a river known to hold bull trout looking to hook a lunker whether its a bull or a big brown are you poaching if the Regs say that you cant fish for bull trout? Or what about a guy slinging spinners all day and gets lucky and hooks one is he a poacher?

When I went and fished there. The guy I went with refused to throw anything like sinking tip, or large heavy streamers, unless he had a catch card for that specific area, regular tackle I'm not sure. As you know bulls are deep water fish mostly. He didn't even want to take the chance. You would have to get that actual info from Montana FWP.
Or somebody that bows more about it then me. I'm sure it's almost impossible to prove, that is unless your a moron and video tape it.

 

[Mtslackcountry]

When I went and fished there. The guy I went with refused to throw anything like sinking tip, or large heavy streamers, unless he had a catch card for that specific area, regular tackle I'm not sure. Ass you know bulls are deep water fish mostly. He didn't even want to take the chance. You would have to get that actual info from Montana FWP.
Or somebody that bows more about it then me. I'm sure it's almost impossible to prove, that is unless your a moron and video tape it.

I like to fish and spend about 1 day a week fly fishing around Missoula in the summers. I rarely fish a streamer and am usually rowing my lady and friends around so I have no experience hooking a bully but I can say in the 9 years I have owned my raft it seems like around these parts it does not seem like that big of a deal to target bull trout. Probably because its hard to prove. All a guy on the blackfoot has to say is he was fishing for browns. So there is some credence to MW's story of nobody telling them that it was a huge deal. Lots and lots of guys are targeting bull trout here. Im not in the "scene" and I still know its going on.

 

[BroodBuster]

When fishing a stream that is open to one species but closed to another it is almost impossible to prove someone is targeting the closed species. Unless you're a total dumbass and video taped the evidence.

As a fisherman though it is very easy to not target that species. Bull trout like to school up in deep slow water. Cutts and bows like more oxygenated water or faster bumpy water. Also it's easy to sight fish for bull trout while cutts and bows are more hidden in the bumpy water or hiding in log jams or other structure.

No way in hell this was a simple mistake or a misunderstanding. Any competent angler can easily avoid bull trout.

 

[DaveC]

I felt a little bad about putting the M-W guys on blast, but their public response dried up all sympathy.

--

You could convince me that in the upper reaches of the South Fork you might hook a few bull trout on accident while floating streamers under log piles and the like, but in the huge, deep pools of the lower sections the tactics for bull trout and even the biggest of cutts are pretty different. Yes plenty of folks break that rule in the South Fork, and elsewhere, but that does not make it acceptable. Folks need to exercise integrity.

 

[tipsntails7]

I felt a little bad about putting the M-W guys on blast, but their public response dried up all sympathy.

--

You could convince me that in the upper reaches of the South Fork you might hook a few bull trout on accident while floating streamers under log piles and the like, but in the huge, deep pools of the lower sections the tactics for bull trout and even the biggest of cutts are pretty different. Yes plenty of folks break that rule in the South Fork, and elsewhere, but that does not make it acceptable. Folks need to exercise integrity.

Dave I read you blog post about it and liked it. I thought you went pretty soft spoken personally and glad you showed more composure then what I probably would have exhibited.

For me the fact that it was bull trout is a factor, just not the main one. It has to do with how they handled the fish in general, and that that handling was directly related to them wanting to get good film, for profit. Being bully's just makes it that much worse.
They also pissed all over the fact that you cannot make a film for profit on designated wilderness areas.

I am willing to say at least for me, if their sponsors continue to support them, my money will go elsewhere. That goes for all their sponsors.

 

[Trial153]

I dont believe in cutting these guys or any other outdoor personality much slack. I don't like to generalize but if they can't respect the outdoors and limited resources we all share then we need to cut the cord with these people.
It's time we police our own, or we will have others doing it in our stead to all our detriment.

 

[tipsntails7]

Just to bring this up top, mystery ranch has released a statement saying they are also dropping them.

I will be disappointed in Sitka, Simms and vortex if they don't follow suit, again I encourage everyone to write these companies and voice your displeasure.

 

[doverpack12]

I'm pretty disappointed how easy they got off. I offered to help them when they were just starting out and they didn't know hardly a thing about hunting. They pretty much told me they were too good for me and didn't want or need my help. I've never been a fan of them since that time and will never support them now after this. I also work with a guy who had a friend take them spring bear hunting. Well a few weeks later they go back without asking and kill a bear on video. They have no place in the hunting or fishing industry and people like them, their actions, and the way they treat people is why hunters get a bad name.

 

[Bubblehide]

I... their actions, and the way they treat people is why hunters get a bad name.

They were never hunters, they were profiteers.

 

[Mark]

Yesterday, I sent email inquiries to their sponsors. I have received replies from Sitka and Mystery ranch.

Sitka had purchased photos from them and has decided not to use the photos and stated that they have no projects with them moving forward.

Mystery Ranch stated that they released a statement yesterday and they have dropped sponsorship and endorsements relating to Montana Wild.

Montana Wilds house of cards is falling down around them, deservedly so...

 

[CrzyTrekker]

Simms responded to me by saying they do not currently have a commercial relationship with Montana Wild, and that the ethics of fly fishing are very important to them.

 

[tipsntails7]

Vortex optics stated they have not made a decision on supporting Montana wild in 2017.. Pretty disheartening. I am a huge vortex fan, but if they end up chooseing to support them I doubt I'll ever own another vortex product.