Bitcoin

[ozyclint]

OK.

So now we’re shutting off peoples internet and seizing phones and computers because someone is using the wrong kind of money? They gonna water board half the population for their seed phrases too? They doing this to all the politicians that own crypto and grandpa that now has it in his retirement account too? How do they track it and know someone owns crypto? Hard wallets have no name tied to them. For all the government knows, once it leaves the KYC exchange it was purchased on, I sent it to the son of the deposed King of Nigeria. There are plenty of ways to sell crypto for cash in this country and neighboring if you wanted to. All you need is to memorize 12 words. The govt knows all this. They would rather me sell it back through the KYC exchange and get their share.

Simply saying “I don’t understand this, I don’t want to learn this, and it seems too volatile so I’m not going to invest” is an OK response. There’s no need to throw stuff at the wall hoping it sticks.

As was mentioned, we’re too far in. Their best and only bet for any sort of regulation is tax. The approved ETF was the final hill that signifies there is no turning back.

I think by asking how, if at all, the govt would seize all BTC and having people explaining the only way pretty much shores up the notion that you don’t have to worry. Or at least we can all agree we have much bigger problems if you think we’re getting to that point. Which puts me back to a previous reply I had; if you think that’s the route this country is going, buy bullets and guns not crypto and gold.

Well merely proposing an alternative oil trading currency was enough for your govt to head over to Libya (A Sovereign nation) and kill Gaddafi.

 

[ozyclint]

I'm not sold on the counter party risk involved. Gold can be traded physically face to face. No reliance on a 3rd party for the transaction to take place.

Bitcoin requires internet, internet requires electricity, etc, etc....

Pretty sure internet can be turned off if needed.

 

[ozyclint]

To put it as simple as possible:

-BTC is the ONLY deflationary currency. Gold used to be considered deflationary, but we will always find more.

Might be true, however to find more takes REAL economic activity. Extracting value from the resources required to do so and storing it. Not simply a computer running on electricity.

 

[TX_Diver]

All of this makes a lot of sense.


What risks are there to btc or some of the altcoins that would cause value to drop?

Not an FTX type deal that could be prevented by using a cold wallet, but what could happen that would make btc go back to $20k instead of up to $100k?

 

[Mighty Mouse]

A big concern for me is you pretty much can't do anything with crypto without transferring it into a bank account somewhere, that's where they get you. So send crypto to your neighbor, that's a trackable transaction, that account then withdraws into a bank account and whamo frozen assets. They're getting better and more efficient tracking all these things that used to fly under the radar. Obviously it's not all random or automatic you'd have to be under some sort of investigation but still the possibility is there especially with the new bank deposit reporting rules.

Centralized control over the ability to perform transactions is one of the problems that Bitcoin seeks to solve. If you transact completely within the Bitcoin "system" (i.e., I send you bitcoin as payment for something, you send me the something, you keep your bitcoin then use it to buy something else), no one can stop you. The Bitcoin ledger—the continuously updated record book of "who" (more precisely, what address) owns how much bitcoin—is distributed amongst thousands of computers scattered across the world. Neither the US government nor any other entity has the power to alter the ledger or stop anyone from transacting on it. Granted, it's not yet practical to conduct all your commerce within the Bitcoin network, but that is the end goal (i.e., no need to convert from bitcoin to dollars). The points of conversion between bitcoin and government-controlled fiat money (e.g., exchanges such as Coinbase, Kraken) are the weak points where the government could in theory freeze/seize one's money and does in reality enforce tax reporting. But those vulnerabilities are really a problem with the fiat money system (not with Bitcoin itself), and those vulnerabilities also apply to your checking/savings account, brokerage account, 401k, etc. The government monitors much of your normal financial activity (crypto-related or not) as a matter of course, can subpoena any additional information it wants at the drop of hat, and has been known to freeze assets on very dubious grounds.

 

[MountainTracker]

All of this makes a lot of sense.


What risks are there to btc or some of the altcoins that would cause value to drop?

Not an FTX type deal that could be prevented by using a cold wallet, but what could happen that would make btc go back to $20k instead of up to $100k?

A massive drop in hash rate. In 2021 there was a price drop due to hash rate falling. In this drop China banned all miners, so they shut down, hash rate dropped so price dropped. The miners moved and fired back up and the price went back up. Oh and China changed their mind about banning crypto miners. Guess where the hash rate started to uptick after that event, America.

That’s one I can think of


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[fmyth]

All of this makes a lot of sense.


What risks are there to btc or some of the altcoins that would cause value to drop?

Not an FTX type deal that could be prevented by using a cold wallet, but what could happen that would make btc go back to $20k instead of up to $100k?

Bitcoin is the only decentralized truly limited supply crypto. BTC didn't pre sell millions of tokens to investors in an initial offering like many of the other alts. I've got some small positions in ETH, SOL and a handful of gaming tokens. I consider everything other than BTC to be highly speculative bets that will most likely go to zero. If Blackrocks ETH ETF gets approved it will likely turn out to be a good investment for me but I do have a number where I'll sell it all.

 

[HairyScandinavian]

Centralized control over the ability to perform transactions is one of the problems that Bitcoin seeks to solve. If you transact completely within the Bitcoin "system" (i.e., I send you bitcoin as payment for something, you send me the something, you keep your bitcoin then use it to buy something else), no one can stop you. The Bitcoin ledger—the continuously updated record book of "who" (more precisely, what address) owns how much bitcoin—is distributed amongst thousands of computers scattered across the world. Neither the US government nor any other entity has the power to alter the ledger or stop anyone from transacting on it. Granted, it's not yet practical to conduct all your commerce within the Bitcoin network, but that is the end goal (i.e., no need to convert from bitcoin to dollars). The points of conversion between bitcoin and government-controlled fiat money (e.g., exchanges such as Coinbase, Kraken) are the weak points where the government could in theory freeze/seize one's money and does in reality enforce tax reporting. But those vulnerabilities are really a problem with the fiat money system (not with Bitcoin itself), and those vulnerabilities also apply to your checking/savings account, brokerage account, 401k, etc. The government monitors much of your normal financial activity (crypto-related or not) as a matter of course, can subpoena any additional information it wants at the drop of hat, and has been known to freeze assets on very dubious grounds.

Yes, but unless you live in Dubai there's not a lot of options and it'd be tough to live in a crypto only economy, especially because it threatens the powers that control the system we have. Perhaps my mind is going too far off the deep end on this one... In the "frozen assets" scenario that was being discussed those powers are still alive and well, if you buy a Tesla with your Bitcoin the FBI will likely confiscate it, etc. It's not as anonymous as people think it is. It'd be cool if somebody would open a farmer's market that accepts crypto payments, I'd offer them to confiscate my used tomatoes in the form of a big steaming pile of #2.

 

[mt terry d]

Once cash is outlawed it
will become valuable.

 

[TX_Diver]

One more question.

A ledger seems to make the most sense, but for some of the “exchanges” like fidelity that only let you buy btc and eth, and not move it to a wallet, etc.

Is there any advantage in that situation to buying btc vs the fidelity etf?

 

[gbflyer]

The straw man arguments about the Feds seizing your BTC becomes moot if one takes said cold wallet and leaves the good old USA for greener pastures such as El Salvador, does it not?

 

[hicountry1]

Once they move to digital currency only, they will have total control over you.

Don't like your social media posts, do donate to their campaign, are a political opponent, they will shut you down.

Look at what that commie Trudeau did to the truckers.

You sell anything, go out with your wife, pay the babysitter etc....where's my taxes ?

Digital currency is a really bad idea.

Crypto is a trial balloon, that's why they are allowing to to continue....until they dont.

 

[Doc Holliday]

We talking about the Jamie Dimond who said at WEF in 2017 that he would fire any trader in his company that bought BTC (causing price to drop 25%) and within 12 hours the largest buyers of a BTC fund in Europe were JP Morgan and Morgan Stanley? Same guy that testified to “shut crypto down” in front of congress in December 2023 and then less than a month later his bank became the largest custodian of the BTC ETF? Same bank that has more than tripled their crypto department in the last 3 month and is reportedly working on a stable coin that would allow trading crypto funds bank to bank? Seems to me like every time Jamie Dimond talks trash about BTC is just a way to set himself up for another buy.

Watch what they do, not what they say.

100%. I work for a bulge bracket bank (one of JPMs peers) and for the last couple of years we have been going gangbusters hiring in the digital assets space

 

[mattferg84]

A lot of these comments are pretty funny. I think some people are upset they bought gold instead of BTC a few years ago. I dont think anyone is saying to put all your money into bitcoin but as of right now its getting harder and harder for people to afford 1 bitcoin. If they turn the internet off I think well have a lot more problems than someone trying to get to their bitcoin. There's a pretty predictable cycle that happens every 4 years and right now is that time. The upside is you could make life changing money but there is that risk where you could lose what you put in. I'm 100% willing to take that risk. It blows my mind that people would still be sidelined right now.

 

[MountainTracker]

One more question.

A ledger seems to make the most sense, but for some of the “exchanges” like fidelity that only let you buy btc and eth, and not move it to a wallet, etc.

Is there any advantage in that situation to buying btc vs the fidelity etf?

If you have your btc on a cold wallet you have complete control of it and can take it anywhere. Some people don’t grasp you can take it anywhere in the world and move to more crypto friendly places if needed. Example, Puerto Rico has zero capital gains on crypto if you have lived there for a year. In an etf you can’t do that. If you hold your own btc you can swap it for other cryptos if you want. ETFs will do in cash not in kind.

The etfs have to physically buy btc and have it in holding, so no paper version, which is good. They are the custodian or they use a third party to hold the btc. Fidelity uses Coinbase as well as most of the other etfs. So there is a lot of centralization there. Some people like not having to mess with responsibility that comes with cold wallets.

Ledger and trezor will cover most cryptos, there are btc specific cold wallets that only hold btc.


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[TX_Diver]

If you have your btc on a cold wallet you have complete control of it and can take it anywhere. Some people don’t grasp you can take it anywhere in the world and move to more crypto friendly places if needed. Example, Puerto Rico has zero capital gains on crypto if you have lived there for a year. In an etf you can’t do that. If you hold your own btc you can swap it for other cryptos if you want. ETFs will do in cash not in kind.

The etfs have to physically buy btc and have it in holding, so no paper version, which is good. They are the custodian or they use a third party to hold the btc. Fidelity uses Coinbase as well as most of the other etfs. So there is a lot of centralization there. Some people like not having to mess with responsibility that comes with cold wallets.

Ledger and trezor will cover most cryptos, there are btc specific cold wallets that only hold btc.


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I'm still interested in the cold wallet and the info you posted on the stock traders thread was extremely helpful. I don't really have plans to move to puerto rico but the concept can obviously be applied under less drastic circumstances too!

I'm just thinking it might also make sense to put some more money in FBTC and set a trailing stop order or something also?

 

[MountainTracker]

I'm still interested in the cold wallet and the info you posted on the stock traders thread was extremely helpful. I don't really have plans to move to puerto rico but the concept can obviously be applied under less drastic circumstances too!

I'm just thinking it might also make sense to put some more money in FBTC and set a trailing stop order or something also?

Glad the info helped. I to will not be moving to Puerto Rico hahaha more of an example that there are places that are crypto friendly. There will be states that are more crypto friendly than others.

So to the other point, really only you can decide that. If you already have an account open then you are getting the exposure. Some things to possibly consider, the time it takes to get a ledger, then set everything up, and the current fees to purchase btc on exchanges, plus a small learning curve.

I have been looking at the etfs and very well may start contributing there a little.

Options are good, you have to decide what is best for your style of investing.


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[hicountry1]

Can one of you bitcoin investors who put money in a bitcoin etf tell me exactly what you bought, what you own ?

If I put money in a stock etf, I can look and see what stocks make up the etf.

So what exactly are you investing in ?

 

[missjordan]

I started playing with crypto when we had the last spike and then fall. Then kept consistently every month since 2021 making small investments in various coins. Things were stagnant for a year or so then it started creeping up until now when it’s gone bonkers. It’s been fun and i plan on continuing to make those small consistent investments into the future whether the market continues to fluctuate or not


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[william schmaltz]

Can one of you bitcoin investors who put money in a bitcoin etf tell me exactly what you bought, what you own ?

If I put money in a stock etf, I can look and see what stocks make up the etf.

So what exactly are you investing in ?

I have a few retirement accounts, a pension waiting someday, social security one day, single stocks, index funds, digital metals, and a couple checking and savings accounts. If SHTF tomorrow and the government shuts it all down, as what seems to be people’s only argument against BTC at this point, all of those accounts are just numbers in a computer. The powers that be can wipe it all out from under me and I have no way to stop them or even really prove it’s mine. It’s all held by other institutions regulated (in bed) with the government. Not to mention, all but maybe the metals would be worthless in that scenario anyways, including the USD accounts.

I’m going to continue living in the real world. Where I’m fairly certain this country doesn’t spiral into complete unchecked and unchallenged communism in the next two years. If for some reason you believe otherwise, put your money where your mouth is and drain all the accounts listed above and buy gold or freeze dry meals or whatever.

I have control over my BTC. It’s in my possession. I can’t say that about any of my other financial accounts. The Canadian government learned that in the trucker example you gave.