Bighorn Question?

[rootacres]

I am 27 years old and understand that I may be putting in preference points in many places for a very long time before drawing a tag. Which states should I be applying in? Some on WY applications are up at the end of the month, should I start purchasing preference points there?

 

[CoHiCntry]

If it's that important to you and putting in for points and drawing are your only way to get it done... I would apply for every state I could including raffles and states that don't have PP until I drew and was successful. It's not cheap though. Only you can decide if it's worth it?

 

[Trial153]

The smart answer is save your money and go to Canada...that said it’s hard to take that advise.
IF and it’s a big IF you have the disposable income and you really want the tag you probably should be applying in any state that has a tags available through some type of random random draw.

 

[Jordan Budd]

Sign up for the <1 Club too! Get put into those raffles as well as any other raffles you can think of. Even if you don't put all the way in at least purchase preference point. But in Wyoming in know there is a certain percentage that is a random draw.. so me with 3 points has just as much of a probability of drawing a tag as someone with 20 points or 0 points. I know a girl that was drawn with 1 point so... it can happen.

 

[Molon Labe]

I was sitting in your shoes a few years ago.

I went through all the states that offer bighorn tags then calculated the cost projection of applying.
So you take the amount it costs to apply and then multiply that by the odds of drawing the tag.
an example: (estimating off the top of my head on costs here...all my research stuff is at home...so bear with me)
Oregon: $150 license to apply and if you have 1 in 300 chance of drawing tag your projected cost is: $45,000
In theory you can go out and purchase a bighorn hunt for less than 45k...so it is not a good value.
and that doesn't include transport, tag fee, and all the other expenses incurred when you actually pull the tag.

But if you are applying for multiple species in a state then you can project a lower cost and it may make sense to apply.
so Utah for example...$150 license and $10/point...and maybe you also apply for elk and deer there as well.
Well then it really only costs 150/3 (lets not discuss sunk costs) plus 10 so $60 and if you have 1 in 300 chance then cost is: 18,000.
So you would want to apply in Utah then. Plus I think in Utah you can get two years applying for the $150.

I don't apply for sheep in Oregon, Washington, Texas, Nebraska, Dakotas and Montana I think? I'm pretty sure that it is more cost effective to apply in Washingtons lottery tags vs their license system.

I think you end up spending $2000-3000 a year if you are applying in all 13 sheep states...and that doesn't guarantee anything in 40 years.
So you could just save the money and hunt Canada...that is typically the smart thing to do haha!
You would be able to get in 3-4 dall/bighorn hunts in your life if you just save the money and don't go through the hassle of applying!!

Sorry not the news you were looking for...

I actually just went through and did projections for a buddy of mine that was asking a similar question on saving vs applying.
I am going to try to find that excel file and post that here...that will help explain this a bit more

 

[Kimbersig]

I wouldn't focus on preference point states. mathematically you are WAY too late in the game to ever draw a tag with preference points. i'd look at bonus point states or states that are purely random. UT draws most if not all NR sheep tags in their random pools, AZ draws most of their NR sheep tags in the random pools. MT and NV are bonus point states, CO is a bonus point state once you acquire the 3 preference points, WY has a few pure random tags that are decent odds, ID and NM are purely random states. I don't know anything about OR, WA or CA.

I would agree with others on here that your best bet is saving as hard as you can and go on a dall sheep hunt. thats what I did....then got lucky the following year and drew my rocky tag in ID as a resident! I spend over $1000 a year on non refundable application fees just for sheep. do what you can in as many states as you can and hope for a lot of luck and prepare for many years of disappointment.

 

[amp713]

Man I'm in the same boat, only a year older than you and started way too late, ive done a lot of research and kimbersig is probably the closest idea to what ive found. And ya it costs to play that game, I debate on Canada a lot but think im gonna pick my top 3-5 and stick to them only.

 

[Kimbersig]

OH HOW COULD I FORGET!!!! Join the Wild Sheep Foundation and their <1 club and go to the Sheep Show. you just might win a fully guided sheep hunt! MT Gomer on here won his there last year. damn near spilled his beer all over me when his buddy picked him up and spun him around the room! Raffles are another good option. many state WSF chapters raffle off sheep hunts for $100 a ticket with limited numbers of tickets sold. State game and fish raffles are another fairly cheap option. there are tons of opportunities out there but its all pay to play so again figure out how much you can spend annually and get to it. and really do some figuring if your cost/risk is a better option than saving for a dall sheep hunt.

 

[Molon Labe]

Found that excel sheet that projected costs of buying grand slam hunts vs applying in all the states:

so here are the assumptions I used:
-$1,800 cost estimate per year applying in all 13 states (includes lic cost, PP/bonus fees, carrying cost for money @ 8.9% 3 months in ID, CO, NM)
-I ran the numbers with $3,000 application costs because that will be the average cost of applying over the next 40 years (roughly) if the states only inflate their costs to apply by 3% every year
-8.9% investment return in your "sheep fund" (8.9 is rough historical return of the market)
-3% inflation on the cost of sheep hunts
-$20,000 dall sheep hunt cost todays dollars
-$30,000 stone cost todays dollars
-$35,000 bighorn cost todays dollars
-$60,000 desert cost todays dollars

Rootacres- Putting away $3,000 per year you would be able to go on a dall hunt at age 33 (21,597 FV cost), stone hunt at age 43 (46,585 FV cost) and bighorn hunt at age 57 (84,503 FV cost) and at age 67 you would need to another $155,000 in 2059 dollars or $46,000 in todays dollars to get your desert ram hunt. But you would be able to get three of the hunts in and not have to go through the application process every year and hope to pull a tag. And only way to shoot a dall for most people is buying the hunt.

And if you wanted...you could go on a Dall hunt every 9 years with what it costs to apply in all 13 states! This would be starting with 1800 this year and then increasing the amount by 3% every year accounting for the states inflating application costs. Think of that as having 11% of drawing every year...now that is great odds for sheep! Plus you wouldn't have to spend all the time applying/researching etc.

For my buddy I just calculated out the amount he needs to put away every year to end up going on all 4 hunts by the time he was 60 years old.
He is 37 right now....he would need to put away $5,215 per year in today's dollars and he could hunt dall at 41, stone at 46, bighorn at 52 and desert at 60. So it is assumed that he puts in 5215/yr plus 3% inflation each year and then takes out the future value of the hunt in the year that he goes...so I wasn't accounting for hunt deposits etc.

This may be eye opening for a lot of people.

Here is an interesting way to look at it:
-Buying a new truck every 5 years you will incur an average of $5,000 in depreciation a year
-Buying a starbucks every morning and then eating out for lunch every day at work will cost you $4,000/year
-Buying a can of Copenhagen and 12pk of craft beer every other day will cost you $5,000/year
-Going out to the bars twice a week will cost you $5,000/year

BOTTOM LINE:
-drive an old pickup and you can hunt the grand slam in 25 years.

 

[JPHuntingAUS]

You could always try MT unlimited.

Since I was a little tacker and only having seen a rare photo of a sheep in magazines now and then I always knew they were my number one game animal.

I can't see myself affording a guided hunt nor the investment for applying year after year so one day, despite the odds I will do an unlimited hunt just to say I've tried.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

 

[Kimbersig]

That is an awesome breakdown Molon Labe!! most people scoff at saving that kind of money for a hunt. bu you did hit the nail on the head. It is actually quite easy to afford it if it is a priority. Most people a sheep hunt won't be a priority over their desire for a new truck or cutting back on vices.

a couple suggestions though. i'd probably up your stone sheep estimate to $40k, and account for a minimum of 10% gratuity and taxidermy costs.

 

[Grumman]

Found that excel sheet that projected costs of buying grand slam hunts vs applying in all the states:

so here are the assumptions I used:
-$1,800 cost estimate per year applying in all 13 states (includes lic cost, PP/bonus fees, carrying cost for money @ 8.9% 3 months in ID, CO, NM)
-I ran the numbers with $3,000 application costs because that will be the average cost of applying over the next 40 years (roughly) if the states only inflate their costs to apply by 3% every year
-8.9% investment return in your "sheep fund" (8.9 is rough historical return of the market)
-3% inflation on the cost of sheep hunts
-$20,000 dall sheep hunt cost todays dollars
-$30,000 stone cost todays dollars
-$35,000 bighorn cost todays dollars
-$60,000 desert cost todays dollars

Rootacres- Putting away $3,000 per year you would be able to go on a dall hunt at age 33 (21,597 FV cost), stone hunt at age 43 (46,585 FV cost) and bighorn hunt at age 57 (84,503 FV cost) and at age 67 you would need to another $155,000 in 2059 dollars or $46,000 in todays dollars to get your desert ram hunt. But you would be able to get three of the hunts in and not have to go through the application process every year and hope to pull a tag. And only way to shoot a dall for most people is buying the hunt.

And if you wanted...you could go on a Dall hunt every 9 years with what it costs to apply in all 13 states! This would be starting with 1800 this year and then increasing the amount by 3% every year accounting for the states inflating application costs. Think of that as having 11% of drawing every year...now that is great odds for sheep! Plus you wouldn't have to spend all the time applying/researching etc.

For my buddy I just calculated out the amount he needs to put away every year to end up going on all 4 hunts by the time he was 60 years old.
He is 37 right now....he would need to put away $5,215 per year in today's dollars and he could hunt dall at 41, stone at 46, bighorn at 52 and desert at 60. So it is assumed that he puts in 5215/yr plus 3% inflation each year and then takes out the future value of the hunt in the year that he goes...so I wasn't accounting for hunt deposits etc.

This may be eye opening for a lot of people.

Here is an interesting way to look at it:
-Buying a new truck every 5 years you will incur an average of $5,000 in depreciation a year
-Buying a starbucks every morning and then eating out for lunch every day at work will cost you $4,000/year
-Buying a can of Copenhagen and 12pk of craft beer every other day will cost you $5,000/year
-Going out to the bars twice a week will cost you $5,000/year

BOTTOM LINE:
-drive an old pickup and you can hunt the grand slam in 25 years.

Great post! Going out to the bars twice a week would cost me a lot more than $5,000/year though


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[Molon Labe]

That is an awesome breakdown Molon Labe!! most people scoff at saving that kind of money for a hunt. bu you did hit the nail on the head. It is actually quite easy to afford it if it is a priority. Most people a sheep hunt won't be a priority over their desire for a new truck or cutting back on vices.

a couple suggestions though. i'd probably up your stone sheep estimate to $40k, and account for a minimum of 10% gratuity and taxidermy costs.

Yeah just going off numbers I've heard from people on stone.
That's one of the reasons I'm going to the sheep show this year want to start my stone research and talking to outfitters in person is important to me.
Planning to hunt them in 2020 or 2021.

 

[Mt Al]

I hunting unlimited in Montana for several years, way back, then put in for about 20 years and drew two years ago. Well worth the wait but only because I'm a resident. Unlimited hunts are fun, you'll most likely see sheep but finding a legal one is really tough, even for people who live a 35 minute drive away.

Anyway, the advice from everyone here is spot on: save and/or put in for the low cost lotteries. Just keeping track of points, dates, etc, is a pain but people do it.

New car/truck insurance, licensing and depreciation are financial killers. Add that up over five or six years and it's a jaw dropper.

Other alternatives are tahr and chamois in NZ, ibex, mountain goat, etc.. Supply/demand on stone, doll, bighorn and desert sheep makes them crazy expensive. If hunting in the mountains is what you crave, there are alternatives with beautiful head gear for way less money and no less adventure.

Not sure what I would have done if i wasn't a resident, so easy for me to recommend something I've not had to deal with! Best of luck.

 

[JPHuntingAUS]

I hunting unlimited in Montana for several years, way back, then put in for about 20 years and drew two years ago. Well worth the wait but only because I'm a resident. Unlimited hunts are fun, you'll most likely see sheep but finding a legal one is really tough, even for people who live a 35 minute drive away.

Anyway, the advice from everyone here is spot on: save and/or put in for the low cost lotteries. Just keeping track of points, dates, etc, is a pain but people do it.

New car/truck insurance, licensing and depreciation are financial killers. Add that up over five or six years and it's a jaw dropper.

Other alternatives are tahr and chamois in NZ, ibex, mountain goat, etc.. Supply/demand on stone, doll, bighorn and desert sheep makes them crazy expensive. If hunting in the mountains is what you crave, there are alternatives with beautiful head gear for way less money and no less adventure.

Not sure what I would have done if i wasn't a resident, so easy for me to recommend something I've not had to deal with! Best of luck.

I've shot a few tahr and it did not dampen my appetite for sheep! Haha

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[snider6464]

I am 27 as well and in the same shoes. Luckily I live in Colorado and have a good opportunity of drawing sheep and goat here in the state. For me it just came down to what is really important, the pursuit. So I only apply for the random draws and buy raffle tickets. The rest of my extra income goes to hunts that I can do that simulate "sheep" hunts. I have done OTC Barbary sheep in NM, Public land self guided tahr, chamois, red stag in NZ, Montana Unlimited, and soon to go hunt Tur in Azerbaijan. I am not saying these hunts are as good as the sheep hunts I have been on but they are a realistic option that does not cost as much. Plus the majority of the hunts I have mentioned you can DIY TODAY which often times leads to a "harder" more rewarding experience at least it has for myself. Just my thoughts and experiences.

Seems like out of staters ask me all the time what Colorado unit that they should hunt. But many of them have no experience hunting elk, because they are to busy applying instead of hunting what is available.

 

[Wapiti1]

Snider6464, I got my Dagestan Tur in 2015 from the Sheki region, you will have a ball. The Caucasus mountains are incredible and the people were great. If at all possible, spend a day in Baku. The old city is beautiful and the food is great if you like ethnic experiences. One of the great bargain adventure hunts still available.

Interesting thread. I don't quite agree with the save up theory presented above. If the Alberta or BC options for bighorns had true 100% success rates, then I would agree. They don't, and are really only in the 50-60% success area. Do some research on this. Most outfitters hunt general sheep areas that the residents also hunt and a legal sheep is tough to find even on a 14-15 day hunt. Draw areas in Alberta are resident only, AFAIK. The few outfitters in prime areas have long wait lists and expect to pay $10000 extra.

Yes, the draw odds in the lower 48 are terrible. Yes, it will take years and years to draw, if at all (over 25-30 years, though, you will draw). However, by and large the hunts run 80% or better success rates and are pretty DIY friendly. Idaho's rough and tumble areas would be the exception. Wyoming wilderness is also not DIY for most.

So, you spend roughly the same amount, and may not get a sheep with either strategy. Either because you didn't draw or because you never found a legal sheep. My money goes to the draw hunts because the odds are I will one day draw, though it will be a while, and I stand a better chance of placing my hands on horns. Over time, it is spendy, yep, no doubt. In the meantime, I have all sorts of other game to hunt for cheap.

The highest odds of getting a sheep are desert bighorn hunts in Mexico. Expensive, but damn near 100% success with rifle. Archery is always another story.

If you want to mountain hunt now, hunt the various goats as others have noted, or hunt Aoudad. Goats are relatively cheap, and they are a hell of a hunt.

Jeremy

 

[TreeWalking]

I am not sure you will draw if you start out applying in all the states out West that offer bighorn sheep tags. A state like WY is likely to cut NR sheep quota in half in next couple of years. That is the best bet since the 25% random pool a newcomer has to hope to draw is on par with odds in CO sheep (other than archery units) as NR. Toss in sheep disease that nukes entire herds for a decade or more and the supply of tags is headed down over the next 25 years. Big game hunters are getting older and older but that is more likely to thin demand for deer and elk permits than sheep. Rising elk and deer tag prices are also making those hunts a once in a decade or lifetime NR hunt for some guys. Sheep fever does not go away. At some point, an older hunter may not really care if ever harvests another deer or elk but dangle a sheep tag in front of them and they are bright-eyed and bushy-tailed.

So, some moving variables there but anyone who draws a sheep tag, unless state regs prevents, races to the back of the line hoping health and wealth holds up. So, sheep tag demand is likely to remain 200x - 1000x the NR bighorn tag supply even as the number of big game hunters falls off the next decade of so and supply of NR sheep tags will certainly fall.

I personally think a wilderness mountain goat hunt is the toughest hunt in the Lower 48. I say wilderness as goats near hikers are more like puppy dogs so those hunts are not tough. The hard part of harvesting a bighorn sheep is usually getting the tag, other than the Unlimited MT units. Aoudad hunts in NM on public land are likely more challenging that the typical bighorn hunt.

If you are painted into a financial corner on chasing the bighorn tags at $1500 to $3000 a year (includes chasing raffles) the consider aoudad in NM on public land. No corn flinger feeders. No ear tags. Big country with plenty of terrain to challenge you.

 

[Steve O]

I’m sure glad I dont do that calculating and projecting; it sure is a dream killer. If you want to go sheep hunting you have got to save and you have got to put in for the draws. Or you can hunt the Unlimiteds; that would more than likely save you a bunch of money...that looks VERY humbling.

I saved for 20 years to go to the Yukon for my Fannin (age 34) and I drew Colorado with 3+3. Soon I will draw Wyoming. Can’t draw if you are not putting in. Actually hunting sheep is a lot more fun for me than calculating all the depressing odds.

 

[kscowboy01]

snider, I'd look at archery hunts for sheep in CO. The new bows are very capable of long range shots and much easier to shoot than their predecessors. You are looking at 2% rifle odds in a good unit, even as a resident. Some good archery units are 20%+. Of course, this all depends if you are able to get the time away from family and work to commit to hunting an entire archery season.