Biggest cause of 'fliers'?

[catorres1]

I have been working up a load for my rifle. Before I continue, let me say that it is entirely possible that the fliers were caused by user error, my rest/bag setup may not be the best, nor my bench technique.

But in testing the load, I found with both groups I shot that day with this load, 1 round (the first) would be out of the group, and then the next 3 would cluster into just under 1/3 inch. All four shots were right at or just under 1".

So other than rest/user issues, what usually is the cause of fliers? I am severaly box limited here, so am a long way from the lands. I suppose I could go shorter, but not longer, so if that's usually the cause, then I am out of luck.

I wondered about not being in the right node. Could be that. The next charge I tested was only .1 grains higher, but the group was dismal.

BTW, barrel was just cleaned and then fouled before testing started.

Thanks!

 

[Huntingpreacher]

My experience the biggest cause of fliers has been brass. .1 grains shouldn't make much difference in your group size. I'd try a couple more groups and see how they do to confirm the first shot pattern. The only variable I could think of would be barrel temp. You could test that by letting your barrel cool between each shot. Good luck!

 

[catorres1]

Thanks for the response! The brass is all from the same lot of Nosler brass, once fired, fireformed to my chamber, just bumping the shoulder back.

But barrel temp might be the determinant. I let the rifle cool somewhat between groups, even to some degree between shots.

I did notice that the rear bag was not consistent...not straight on to the front rest. And in dry firing off the front rest, I also noticed that the pin fall shook the reticle more than I would expect, and inconsistently depending on how I situated the rifle. So it could be that when I re-set up for each group, it was slightly different for the first shot, and then it settled in. Not sure.

I think I might try setting up off my harris...see how consistent it is there. Thing is, it really seems to want to shoot that load...other than the flier, it was stacking bullets.

 

[N2TRKYS]

With the flier being the first shot doesn't lead me to believe it's a barrel heat issue.
Seating depth has been the biggest cause of fliers for me.
With your issue, you may want to check to see if something with your rifle has changed after your first shot.
I'm interested to hear what solves your problem.

 

[chicoredneck]

Fliers is can be very difficult to diagnose as there are many variables that can cause the issue. If it’s always the first shot, every single time, then I would look at barrel contact with the stock, especially with a very light weight barrel. Check it before the first shot, then after the group is fired. Also, check your bedding, if the rifle has any, and screws. The action may be seating itself after the first shot. That being said, it could be an issue with your mounts, scope, etc.

 

[chicoredneck]

I doubt it’s an issue with your loads if it’s consistently the first shot every time. That being said, if the flier is more random, there is a high chance that you have an issue with your load.

 

[doverpack12]

If it’s the first shot I would say it’s likely cold bore impact shift. Shoot more groups and see if it’s always the same spot and distance out. If it is you know right where your cold bore shot impacts and right where you Group after the first shot

 

[catorres1]

Thanks for the replies and suggestions! I'll recheck my screws for torque, and then give it another round to see what the groups look like on a different day. I can say that the 'round out' is not consistent. I am hoping its the loose nut behind the trigger...

 

[Formidilosus]

If it’s the first shot I would say it’s likely cold bore impact shift. Shoot more groups and see if it’s always the same spot and distance out. If it is you know right where your cold bore shot impacts and right where you Group after the first shot

Unless there is something mechanically wrong with the rifle system, “cold bore” is really cold shooter. There is nothing that will cause a first shot miss (that what a “CB” is), unless the gun system needs work.



OP-

I would say that a couple of 4 shot “groups” won’t tell you much.

 

[doverpack12]

I less there is something mechanic balky wrong with the rifle system, “cold bore” is really cold shooter. There is nothing that will cause a first shot miss (that what a “CB” is), unless the gun system needs work.

Form I'm not disagreeing with you since you have far more experience than any of us hope to obtain, but could you elaborate as there seems to be a fair amount of information out there on cold bore mapping and impact shift from some well documented sources. If we are not talking custom rifles and barrels, I thought it was very possible not all the stresses within the barrel were eliminated as the barrel is built and as a result the first shot impacts different because the bore is cold, and then once the bore is warm the barrel flexes due to the stresses and holds impact point?

 

[Formidilosus]

If we are not talking custom rifles and barrels, I thought it was very possible not all the stresses within the barrel were eliminated as the barrel is built and as a result the first shot impacts different because the bore is cold, and then once the bore is warm the barrel flexes due to the stresses and holds impact point?

Yes that is possible. A non stress relieved, or improperly stress relieved barrel can walk as it heats up. It won’t throw the first shot out, and then all others into a group, nor will that first shot alway go into the same hole like a lot of people think. Instead it will gradually walk as the temperature of the barrel goes up until eventually hitting equilibrium. I.E.- it “walks” in a line.




Not really directed at you, but this has come up a couple times in the last couple days....


The real question- is why in this day and age would anyone accept a manufacturer that doesn’t properly stress relieve their barrels? Whether it’s walking from heat or a “cold bore” deviation- would anyone accept a scope that threw its first shot off, then shifted point of impact and “settled down”? Of course not (well actually a lot do, but that is another topic). Yet somehow the rifle community has just decided to accept junk rifles that have a cold bore miss. A rifle that exhibits walking or a “cold bore” deviation needs to be fixed.


If a rifle truly throws its first shot out, and the next (nine) rounds group well, then most often it’s an assembly or bedding issue. Something is shifting after the first recoil. The rifle needs to be fixed, do not just live with it.

It is extremely common with Remington rifles to have a barrel that isn’t stress relieved properly, improperly assembled, and bedding that’s jacked up. Not super common, but not unheard of for Winchester’s to have a bad barrel, but assembly is usually ok and bedding generally works. Savages barrels can be hit or miss, though generally decent, but often bedding and stock work needs to be done. Ruger is much better these days. Most of the smaller manufacturers like Bergara and MRC have good barrels. It is virtually unheard of to see a bad Sako (Tikka’s are Sako) or Sauer barrel, bedding, or assembly that is out of order.


Hitting with rifles is first and formost about a static zero and there is no reason to accept anything but.