BHA Supporting Legislation Outlawing the Sale of Information on Big Game Locations

[robby denning]

Tons of speculation on this thread and some downright incorrect assumptions so I thought I’d chime in with my experiences of owning and operating a successful scouting service for over 20 years.

I opened my scouting service officially in 2001 but had done several packages for guys before as early as 1997. I thoroughly researched Idaho law before officially declaring it a business (as in filing a d.b.a.)

Dean Sangre was the director of Idaho Outfitters and Guides board then (responsible for enforcing Idaho’s guide laws) and gave us the OK “as long as we weren’t accompanying anyone into the areas”—all had to be done via mail, email, phone, no in-person stuff or that would be guiding. No restriction on picture taking was ever mentioned. I don’t think he liked the idea of the service but knew the law didn’t prohibit it, so he treated me fairly.

I did probably 50-75 scouting packages over the next 10 years. Turned away more business than I took due to high demand.

By 2011, had two more guys working for me. I’m sure we passed the 100 package mark around then. One of those guys still works for me.

Then again in 2011 I actually had to testify in front of the board to get my Outfitters permit for guiding on private land. Director was Jake (can’t remember last name) and he was aware of my scouting service even 10 years and a few directors later. He had me explain to the board how my scouting service worked. I felt like I received an even warmer reception then than when talking to Sangre a decade earlier. They must’ve thought all was well because they granted me one of the first Outfitters licenses for private land in SE Idaho.

During all that, I expanded my services into Wyoming, Nevada. Did the research about legality and it came down to the same restrictions- as long as we didn’t accompany anyone into the areas, all was legal.

Got super busy after Rokslide opened so I pulled out of Wyoming/Nevada and only operate in Idaho right now. My employee might take some Wyoming packages this year (if still legal) if the calls come in.

If you check my website, you’ll see we do a lot more than “sell coordinates.” Never really saw the value in that as more goes into successfully helping hunters than giving them a coordinate. That would be a rip-off and soon we’d have no business. Go listen to Avery Adventures podcast with my scout Jim Carr if you really want all the details. I think you’ll find the coordinates are a pretty small part of it. I can’t speak for how any other scouting service does it.

As far as this whole BHA thing, whatever the law ends up, my business will follow it. I do think their split decision on allowing Outfitters to sell information but not a scouting service is a lot like Wyoming’s wilderness law that won’t let a nonresident hunt without a guide but he can fish and backpack in wilderness no problems. Double standards in the least.

My intention is not to debate this issue as it’s really up to the public to decide what we want allowed on public land. I just wanted to get some facts out there on what a legitimate scouting service actually does. Love it or hate it. Your choice.


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[dieselchessy]

I think BHA screwed up adding “fair chase” and “ethics” into it.

Selling “scouting packages” or “locations of animals” is “guiding” and needs to be licensed and regulated as such. I fully agree with that stance.

But adding in discussion of “fair chase” and “ethics” just muddies the water and detracts from the key of the issue.

This pimping out of trophy animals happens in Washington. Folks sell this info to well off individuals who then buy out the raffles or bid on the Govenors tags or other auction tags already knowing what the exact target animal is.

As I recall the Spider bull was taken in a similar manner.

While guides do the same thing, they are at least licensed, regulated, and pay the requisite fee’s.
At the very least, anyone selling information about the location of game animals should be likewise licensed and regulated.

 

[robby denning]

People that would buy or sell a location are certifiable dipshits, no doubt.

Thanks pal.



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[lak2004]

Tons of speculation on this thread and some downright incorrect assumptions so I thought I’d chime in with my experiences of owning and operating a successful scouting service for over 20 years.

I opened my scouting service officially in 2001 but had done several packages for guys before as early as 1997. I thoroughly researched Idaho law before officially declaring it a business (as in filing a d.b.a.)

Dean Sangre was the director of Idaho Outfitters and Guides board then (responsible for enforcing Idaho’s guide laws) and gave us the OK “as long as we weren’t accompanying anyone into the areas”—all had to be done via mail, email, phone, no in-person stuff or that would be guiding. No restriction on picture taking was ever mentioned. I don’t think he liked the idea of the service but knew the law didn’t prohibit it, so he treated me fairly.

I did probably 50-75 scouting packages over the next 10 years. Turned away more business than I took due to high demand.

By 2011, had two more guys working for me. I’m sure we passed the 100 package mark around then. One of those guys still works for me.

Then again in 2011 I actually had to testify in front of the board to get my Outfitters permit for guiding on private land. Director was Jake (can’t remember last name) and he was aware of my scouting service even 10 years and a few directors later. He had me explain to the board how my scouting service worked. I felt like I received an even warmer reception then than when talking to Sangre a decade earlier. They must’ve thought all was well because they granted me one of the first Outfitters licenses for private land in SE Idaho.

During all that, I expanded my services into Wyoming, Nevada. Did the research about legality and it came down to the same restrictions- as long as we didn’t accompany anyone into the areas, all was legal.

Got super busy after Rokslide opened so I pulled out of Wyoming/Nevada and only operate in Idaho right now. My employee might take some Wyoming packages this year (if still legal) if the calls come in.

If you check my website, you’ll see we do a lot more than “sell coordinates.” Never really saw the value in that as more goes into successfully helping hunters than giving them a coordinate. That would be a rip-off and soon we’d have no business. Go listen to Avery Adventures podcast with my scout Jim Carr if you really want all the details. I think you’ll find the coordinates are a pretty small part of it. I can’t speak for how any other scouting service does it.

As far as this whole BHA thing, whatever the law ends up, my business will follow it. I do think their split decision on allowing Outfitters to sell information but not a scouting service is a lot like Wyoming’s wilderness law that won’t let a nonresident hunt without a guide but he can fish and backpack in wilderness no problems. Double standards in the least.

My intention is not to debate this issue as it’s really up to the public to decide what we want allowed on public land. I just wanted to get some facts out there on what a legitimate scouting service actually does. Love it or hate it. Your choice.


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Thanks for the insight on this. I think a legitimate business like yours is worlds apart from some app you can download and share coordinates for an animal you saw. There is no accountability in that and frankly is a commercial service at that point that should be licensed, bonded, insured, whatever. People who follow the rules and take the time for due diligence, I'm all for it. Otherwise, it shouldn't be left to every Tom, Dick and Harry.

 

[BCSojourner]

FYI, a guide has to be licensed and permitted on public lands-that means they also have to have insurance to acquire the permit which can be extremely costly. Plus they probably have invested a lot of $ in their business to begin with and have to spend a lot of time learning an area, setting up and operating camps, reporting their use, pay 3% of their gross revenue, etc., etc. In short they have earned the privilege to own and legally operate a business on public lands. You could do it too if you are willing to make that kind of commitment. Does anyone on this thread really think that selling a GPS point is legit? In a sense it is a form of illegal outfitting and folks that are doing it are profiting off of your, I repeat your tax $ that go into managing the habitat and the game-just to make some easy and quick $. At what point do we draw the line? I agree with other posts that support the boots on the ground. If you are an ethical hunter then you take the time to scout and learn the area that you are going to hunt or hook up with someone else who does it. If you can't take the time and make the effort then you shouldn't be out there. That is why it is called hunting and not just shooting. This is getting closer and closer to just shooting and it sure isn't fair to the majority of ethical hunters who spend the time on he ground year after year! We should all be grateful that BHA is taking this stand. We still have public lands-lets not abuse the privilege of fair chase on the public lands with this kind of profiteering!

 

[lak2004]

FYI, a guide has to be licensed and permitted on public lands-that means they also have to have insurance to acquire the permit which can be extremely costly. Plus they probably have invested a lot of $ in their business to begin with and have to spend a lot of time learning an area, setting up and operating camps, reporting their use, pay 3% of their gross revenue, etc., etc. In short they have earned the privilege to own and legally operate a business on public lands. You could do it too if you are willing to make that kind of commitment. Does anyone on this thread really think that selling a GPS point is legit? In a sense it is a form of illegal outfitting and folks that are doing it are profiting off of your, I repeat your tax $ that go into managing the habitat and the game-just to make some easy and quick $. At what point do we draw the line? I agree with other posts that support the boots on the ground. If you are an ethical hunter then you take the time to scout and learn the area that you are going to hunt or hook up with someone else who does it. If you can't take the time and make the effort then you shouldn't be out there. That is why it is called hunting and not just shooting. This is getting closer and closer to just shooting and it sure isn't fair to the majority of ethical hunters who spend the time on he ground year after year! We should all be grateful that BHA is taking this stand. We still have public lands-lets not abuse the privilege of fair chase on the public lands with this kind of profiteering!

At least electronically controlled weapons are illegal at this point, otherwise we would have clowns building robots with guns and buying GPS coordinates to go shoot whatever they can.

 

[wind gypsy]

For the guys who equate this to guiding and are against the legislation, do you feel they should also be regulated similarly to guides and outfitters? Are you against the use of drones? Serious question out of curiosity.

When you guys look at the online selling of animal location information, what aspects do you see as a positive? I’m struggling to think of any. It sure doesn’t have positive optics for non-hunters. I just can’t see how it is something that is good for hunting as a whole but I can easily see how it could be bad for hunting.

 

[Ryan Avery]

Seems like a big waste of time and money to me. I still don’t trust the head sheds at BHA. I think some of the state chapters do great work. They would do better with new leadership. I’m always one foot in and one foot out with them.


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[Mike7]

Interesting discussion.

My only negative experiences in the wilderness to this point just happen to have all been associated with so called "regulated" guides/outfitters and not with others who have hiked back in there on their own regardless of what kind of intel they might have obtained from biologists, friends, guide services, etc.

The overwhelming numbers of hunters filling the mountain valleys (where I have hiked 10 miles just to get to) were brought in by outfitters. The only one dragging horses right through my camp during the night was the outfitter who only yelled that our tent shouldn't be so close to where he likes to cross the river. And the only deer getting chased up the trail past us repeatedly were by the oufitter's cattle dogs.

I am not necessarily against regulating guide services, but from what I have seen, the wilderness experience and impact on game may be far greater from one outfitter compared to many guide services.

Being personally guided is a huge advantage over someone being told where they might find game. So the ethics part of the argument by those who are against selling information, but who on the other hand quite ironically support guides, would seem to not hold any water for me.

 

[tdhanses]

I don’t know Robby Denning or anything about him, so I don’t know. Does he fit what I said?
If so, then yes. I said it pretty clearly and it’s still there to re-read if you didn’t catch it the first time.

Wow, nice, call an owner of Rokslide a dipshit and one that has killed more big deer then most will ever see.

 

[tdhanses]

Seems like a big waste of time and money to me. I still don’t trust the head sheds at BHA. I think some of the state chapters do great work. They would do better with new leadership. I’m always one foot in and one foot out with them.


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I did a life membership a few years ago but doubt I give them anymore money, they seem to be moving more to the hipster side of hunting.

 

[tdhanses]

I watched a band of rams in the unlimiteds for 6 weeks in 2016 live on or within a 1/4 mile of the same finger ridge.
The biggest was killed in that exact spot by a fellow rockslider who figured this ram out and worked his butt off and found and killed him on opener on his own. He posted the story on this forum.
I wonder what I could have got to hand that information over to somebody?
Nothing about that sounds right to me.

Probably nothing when you really think about it as most won’t do the work to get there. Now maybe if you include a horse, meals and camp they would take you up on it, wait that’s an outfitter last I checked.

 

[MantanaPastor]

Obvious facts based upon real science and proven by poles used by CNN:
1> Game animals will always stay in the same drainage their entire life and keep the same habits in each and every season.
2> When someone pays for information, scouting, or guiding it automatically stops local hunters from having a chance at that animal.
3> No Montanin would ever sell a lazy yuppie (who wants an easy way out of the joy of scouting) a dot on a map that is just a scavenger hunt placebo.
4> The walking around of these waypoint hunters would disturb our local re-introduced predators and invert the beautiful trophic cascades that they have been working so hard at creating for us.
5> Selling a point on a GPS will definitely negatively affect our local economy.
6> This is the most important issue for BHA to allocate significant time and resource toward.
7> Government agencies want more laws like this to enforce. It really helps them have more time to focus on the big issues...

 

[MantanaPastor]

I think you all are missing the point in this one. The problem isn't selling a spot to only one person, you're correct in that is no different than a guide. The problem is selling a spot to anyone and everyone. If services are collecting spots from people and then selling them to groups of people all of the sudden those spots are ruined. In my opinion it has nothing to do with fair chase and everything to do with ruining good hunting grounds by selling that information to every lazy ass with an internet connection.

Good in bha and Montana for stopping this before it starts.

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Actually, this already happens like crazy via YouTube... Randy Newberg (who’s all about BHA) blows up great spots in Montana like they are going out of style. We should make laws against him doing that... “It’s not fair because I would have eventually found all of those spots on my own without his help and no one else would have ever known about them. I’m pretty positive that I’m the first person in Montana to ever use google earth and OnX maps in conjunction with one another too.”

 

[Schaaf]

I fully expect Montana to implement some form of this law, just like I fully expect states like Utah to not touch this. Just the way things are and the way things have always been.

 

[MichaelO]

Some of you bring up a potentially valid point when it comes to guides and outfitters. They do (at least claim) to have high success rates.

This translates into reduced opportunity for the rest of us. And in the days of disappearing opportunity and once in a lifetime tags perhaps it’s time to revisit how we have set this up.

Modern big game conservation is a relatively new phenomenon only going back 100 or so years. Biologists and lawmakers are still trying to figure out how best to use this renewable resource, that’s obvious from changes in seasons,quotas and equipment regs. Nothing is set set in stone and so sacred that it can’t be changed including the permitting of guides if it threatens the resource.

 

[WV Mountaineer]

You likely won't hear much about being against a wolf hunting ban from the BHA if their past reactions to wolf topics are to be expected here. I've asked that question many times. Some on social media and was told how insignificant and stupid I was to assume that he BHA would take a stand n anything not associated with Access issues facing Public land sportsmen. Seems like that is an oxymoron now.

If I a am wrong about that then I'll go ahead and say so right now. If I'm not, Id like to hear why the BHA feels compelled to be a political player on topics such as this but, stays out of the show when a hunter threatening topic is in play.

 

[WV Mountaineer]

Seems like a big waste of time and money to me. I still don’t trust the head sheds at BHA. I think some of the state chapters do great work. They would do better with new leadership. I’m always one foot in and one foot out with them.


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I think that sums up 100% of the critical crowd concerning the BHA. Hard to argue against the intent of the people that join. However, the leadership never fails to confuse the heck out of me when they do stupid stuff like this. And, I am beginning to wander why members continue to give their support. At what point does agenda over rule niffty mission statements?

 

[ODB]

I think that sums up 100% of the critical crowd concerning the BHA. Hard to argue against the intent of the people that join. However, the leadership never fails to confuse the heck out of me when they do stupid stuff like this. And, I am beginning to wander why members continue to give their support. At what point does agenda over rule niffty mission statements?

Yup. And by they way, one could easily use BHAs own position on motorized access against outfitters and guides. “Why would you want to cheat yourself out the process of discovery (researching/self-guided) and exploring our sacred public lands by taking short cuts via a paid guide who merely directs you to an animal?”

Not my position, but sometimes BHA does not think past their nose...especially Tawney.

 

[MT_Wyatt]

The bill is quite specific. Read it. It’s Montana Senate Bill 127. It only makes selling the specific animal location illegal. Animals move so at first glance I would tend to agree with folks’ sentiment. And Scouting services like trailheads, drainages, etc are not the same thing as advertising specific animals, game cam locations, and advertising services based on a specific animal. That’s where the fair chase issue comes up. A transaction for a specific animal or whereabouts.

The testimony before the Senate committee by the bill sponsor made the narrowness and intent clear - they showed examples of services where specific animals were being advertised. I’d say that’s the ethical line that gets crossed. People don’t have to agree with that.....but I’d say if we’re going to argue about something, let’s get the actual bill language and facts correct first. Please.

I’m at a loss how easy it is for an argument to go on here and making BHA out as the bad guys. They didn’t bring the bill. And BHA didn’t stand up in the hearing and lash out against e scouting or rally in support of guides and outfitters. They did echo the fair chase argument many people made last week before the committee.

Trail your correct, all of the testimony during the Senate Fish and Game committee hearing was in support of the Bill, with all those organizations you listed, and a couple more. Thanks for clarifying that.